101: What’s the Best Engine Platform to Learn Tuning On?

As every JDM fanboy knows, Nissan Skyline GT-Rs are fast — the question is, with the right knowledge and skills behind a GT-R, just how fast can these iconic 90s machines go? So far, the answer to that question is 6.37 at 224mph. ‘JUNII’ is the street-legal, 4WD R32 GT-R that holds this record, and on this week’s episode of Tuned In, we get to sit down with the building and tuning force behind this insane machine, as well as many other record-setters — Con Tatsis of Croydon Racing Developments.
 

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Con didn’t start Croydon Racing Developments — he actually first walked through the doors as a work experience kid, before leaving school to take up a junior role at the highly-respected Sydney shop. Over the following years, Con would become a qualified mechanic and soak up all the tuning knowledge he could from the original owners, before taking over the business a few years ago.

In this conversation, we jump straight into some fairly intense discussions on everything tuning, including opinions on the drawbacks of rolling road and hub dynos, an interesting discussion on the best engine platform to learn to tune on, as well as the simple joys of tuning a simple NA motor to absolute perfection.

The chat then turns towards all things Nissan Skyline and RB, diving down a fair few rabbit holes as our host Andre tries to squeeze all the gold he can out of Con’s brain when it comes to building massive-power Nissan RB engines, 110mm turbos pushing nearly 100psi, dealing with 4WD launches at the sort of performance levels CRD is churning out, and more.

This conversation is a great look into the sharpest end of import tuning and racing, and with various record-breaking builds regularly hitting Sydney’s streets, dragstrips, and race circuits under his belt every weekend, Con is a voice well worth listening to.

Follow Croydon Racing Developments here:
IG: @croydonracingdevelopments
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Don’t forget, you can use “CROYDON100” to get $100 OFF our HPA Tuning Starter Package course: https://hpcdmy.co/starterb

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT:

Conn
Guest
00:00
It's too big, you're never gonna get it out. You're never gonna run out of time out. Next, you know we went to the 91, then went to the 94, then went to the 98 and then we pulled the 98 off. We're going you know what stuff. Unless you put the 110 on it, it's pretty much gone from an 88 to a 110 and you still looking for more to them. I was well.
Andre
Host
00:28
Welcome to the HBO TUNED IN podcast. I'm Andru, your host, and in this episode we're joined by Conn from Croydent Racing Development. So CRD in Sydney, australia, conn is responsible at the moment for tuning and developing, for that matter, jun 2, which is an R32 Nissan Skyline GTR. The claim to fame here is that at the time of recording, this was, or is, the fastest GTR in the world, with a 6.37 at 224mph. Arguably it is street legal, maybe street legal-ish. I don't know how far you want to go down that particular path, but I'm not here to argue it. Fact is you can do a 6-3 on the quarter, rock back down the return road and even drive the car back to the workshop via the McDonald's drive-thru if you want. Probably doesn't have air conditioning, might not be the most comfortable ride and hopefully you don't see any police on the way home, but that's beside the point. That 6.37 also makes it the fastest outright four wheel drive drag car in the world. This is no joke. Now Conn goes through his background story of how he got involved in cars and, more specifically, how he learned to tune from the previous owner of CRD, and this is obviously always a difficult industry to break into. So it's interesting to get Conn's perspective on how he learned from his mentor and then how he started developing his own skill set before really jumping in the deep end in tuning cars like Jun 2.
02:04
Before we jump into our episode with Conn, for those who are new to the podcast, high Performance Academy is an online training school where we specialise in teaching people how to tune, how to build engines, how to construct wiring harnesses. We also cover race car setup, race driver education, fabrication, 3d modelling and CAD, just to name a few. All of our courses are delivered in high definition video based modules that you can take from anywhere in the world, provided you've got an internet connection. This gives you the flexibility to learn how to be comfortable in your own place and you can learn at your own pace. Once you've purchased a course from us, it is yours for life. You can rewatch it as many times as you like and there is zero risk of purchasing. All of our courses come with a 60 day no questions asked money back guarantee. You can find a full list of our courses at hpacademycom.
02:54
Forward slash courses and, as a podcast listener, you can use the coupon code podcast75,. That'll get you $75 off the purchase of your first HPA course and if you like free stuff, have I got a deal for you. Hpa is always sponsoring with big names from the industry in giving away products. There is no catch to this, no purchase necessary, and you can find our current giveaway by heading to hpacademycom forward slash giveaway. We'll chuck links in the show notes to those as well, so it's super easy for you to find Enough about our introduction. Let's get into our interview now. Welcome to the podcast, colin. Thanks for joining us today and, as usual, let's start by finding out how you got interested in cars and the automotive scene in the first place.
Conn
Guest
03:39
Well, to be honest, I actually I enjoyed cars I like cars, obviously back in school, but I never really wanted to be a mechanic. As usual, I left things to the last minute and didn't organise my year-to-year work experience. So Theo, who was part owner of Quarton back in the early 2000s and obviously set one of the founders he was actually a relative of ours. So one thing led to another, I ended up going there to really start work experience there, just to sort of get me out of school, to be honest. So I started there and, to be honest, I didn't really like the whole import scene of more of a VA guy.
Andre
Host
04:11
Oh, how times have changed.
Conn
Guest
04:12
Yeah, yeah, so it actually changed pretty quickly, to be honest. So I remember there was back then I think it was, like a VH or a VK Commodore went on the dyno and I was all excited you know, seeing was making a whole heap of noise and it made about 150kW, sounds about right. And I'm like, yeah, fair enough, that's pretty cool. Then a 200 or 6 went on, sounded like a vacuum cleaner and, you know, pumped out 250. I'm like, hold on. I think I was going on here.
Andre
Host
04:34
Yeah, there's a bit of a disconnect there, surely?
Conn
Guest
04:36
Yeah, yeah. And then one thing led to another. Obviously I opened my eyes a bit. You got this little 2L pump and you're almost double the horsepower that this other thing was, and it's double half the capacity.
Andre
Host
04:46
On that note. I mean we see this in New Zealand. I got involved in the drag industry here in New Zealand import drag scene when it was very much V8 biased and frankly we'd go to a drag meeting and we weren't really liked until we started running in the 8s, which sort of some of them started to take notice and we sort of see that in Australia and I think to a degree in the US as well, the sort of like the domestic versus import scene. How hard was it to break down those barriers and sort of get the import scene to expand in Australia?
Conn
Guest
05:16
Well, look, I think the import scene sort of well and truly kicked off. When I come into it, jim back then was obviously pushing it pretty hard. He started in the 1990s with the Swift, you know when it was really just setting off. When I come in, you know the GDRs were big but it wasn't the Bill and Endall sort of thing back then, and back then we had the whole drag combat things which obviously pushed the whole scene as well. You got your order, so long dyno comps, that sort of thing, and it's gone, I guess just gone from strength to strength. They've really kicked off and I guess back in the mid 2000s they hit a bit of a I'll probably 2005, I reckon 2012, hit a bit of a flat spot. I think Not much really evolved, changed and then all of a sudden it's like you just put a rock on it but nothing, just took off.
Andre
Host
05:56
Yeah, sure, and I think this definitely was a little bit of a struggle here in New Zealand with people accepting them initially. But, like you say, I mean you've got a small capacity, two litre engine with a turbocharger making sometimes double the power of a conventional V8 at the time. So it's hard to argue with those numbers. But I mean there's obviously an individual choice as well. Not everyone likes the sound of a four cylinder engine, or six cylinders it may be.
Conn
Guest
06:21
Yeah, of course, of course. Look, I think you're always going to have your V8 guys and your import guys, but I don't think really where the cars are going these days. I don't think the V8 guys can say too much other than well, to be honest, they're punching above their weights what we're doing with the import stuff.
Andre
Host
06:38
When I first started, the old saying was always there's no replacement for displacement. But I think that one hasn't aged that well realistically.
Conn
Guest
06:46
No, there's just turbochargers, so you can just put a bigger turbocharger on it these days.
Andre
Host
06:51
Oh well, coming back to when you sort of snuck in the back door of CRD and started work experience. So up to this point you said you had a bit of an interest in cars at school, but nothing too serious. You built up any mechanical skill set at that point, or you're starting from zero.
Conn
Guest
07:05
Other than playing on my own XFL come back in the day not really hadn't really done anything, to be honest, playing around with bikes and cars, that's about it. I pretty much went in blind, not knowing what to expect, and, yeah, it just sort of kicked off from there. I enjoyed it and then ended up doing school holidays, weekends, pretty much for the next two years and then, as soon as I finished school, I literally finished, I think, my last exam on the Wednesday or Thursday and then started work on the Monday. So I was pretty keen to sort of get into it.
Andre
Host
07:35
Okay, so on that basis, did you go down the path of doing your mechanical qualifications or qualification as a mechanic?
Conn
Guest
07:42
Yes, I enrolled in TAFE, done my three years in TAFE and completed that and then, once I completed that, it was just pretty much everything at work. So there was no real qualifications you can get for the whole performance side. A lot of it is learning in the industry.
Andre
Host
07:59
That's what I wanted to dive into there, so it's good that you brought that up. These days I sort of see people who want to go down that path of becoming a mechanic. I mean, obviously the skills, the way the engines work predominantly has always remained the same, but I see a lot less mechanical work being done these days on more modern cars, and a lot of being a mechanic these days is more seems to be more focused around using scan tools, diagnostic tools to find and fix faults. So is that kind of an accurate representation of what's happening if you go into, maybe, a dealership as opposed to a performance workshop?
Conn
Guest
08:34
Yeah, pretty much. It's changed a lot. So in the early 2000s and earlier you really had to use your mechanical knowledge to diagnose a car and go through it. You didn't have the availability of all the scan tools you do today to pretty much point you in the right direction. So there's a lot of fault finding and diagnostic work you have to do. Nowadays a lot of people just plug in a scanner and if a scanner is not telling them they're going to think the car's okay. So unfortunately it's gotten to that and you still get your mechanics. Obviously that work at dealerships that have an idea what's going on. But there's also a lot that if it's not really down in front of them they'll struggle to find it.
Andre
Host
09:08
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of skills that are being lost and for obvious reasons, the likes of cam belt changes, which are a pretty typical maintenance item on most engines that run at cam belt.
09:20
But of course these days most manufacturers have switched from cam belts to chains which are almost maintenance free. And a classic example of this I've seen here in New Zealand and I see reports of it around the world, as the Twitter 86 had a recall at one point on one of the models for Valve Springs. So it's a pretty major job. The engine had to come out and the Valve Springs get replaced and I think one of the dealerships and I won't name names one of the dealerships they had about a 50% failure rate because those engines are reasonably complex to time back up with the dual chains. I mean it's not rocket science, but I think it just shows the mechanics aren't getting their hands dirty to that level these days like they used to. No disrespect, I mean obviously they're doing the tasks that they see come in the door. So you had the fortunate position to be at CRD building up that skill set beyond what you learned in TAFE. So what was your sort of day to day back then in terms of working on performance cars.
Conn
Guest
10:16
I guess it's changed over the years. When we first started you used to have a lot of cars come in for the usual maintenance stuff like your saying cam, belt, stuff like that. We also. Back then it was in the early stages of engine management, aftermarket engine management system, so there was a lot of piggyback stuff. So back then we were fitting a lot of uni chips, a lot of fuel cut defenders and all stuff like that which is we used to pump out those like clockwork.
10:39
Pretty much boost control was off, stuff like that, all that stuff that these days everyone does at home. No one used to touch them before. Everyone used to bring them to the shop to do. And then it's gone from that. That started dying off and then it started getting slowly more and more chasing the performance side of things, upgrading to overcharges, into coolers, all that sort of things, fuel systems, and it's just pretty much spiralled from there. Nowadays I'm finding that it's not people doing small stuff now. They go from pretty much zero to 100 very quickly. So that whole middle part of the scene has sort of died off and all the more serious stuff is kicking off, if you know what I mean.
Andre
Host
11:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright. So what we really got you on the podcast to talk about, however, is EFI tuning, and that's a very different skill set to being a mechanic performance mechanic. How did you sort of progress from being a mechanic to the tuning side?
Conn
Guest
11:33
Pretty much. I spent the first I'm going to say at least three years on the dyno with Jim.
Andre
Host
11:39
So Jim was one of the founders of CRD.
Conn
Guest
11:42
Yeah, Jim was a founder of CRD and then later on, I think in the late 90s, early 2000, he merged with Racing Emotion, which started CRD and Racing and then it's obviously, yeah, they've taken off from there, but Jim was the main tuner performance side of things and Jim building that sort of thing.
11:59
So I pretty much has glued myself to Jim for the first three years, Obviously being new in the whole scene and learning. Obviously apprentice has spent a lot of time on the dyno helping out and listening for knock, you know that sort of stuff, keeping the nine things. So I pretty much focused a lot of time on just watching what Jim was doing and I didn't really start getting into the tuning itself until probably 2000,. I think the first car tuned with my own, one of my mates cars and then while I was still working under Jim Jim done most of the tuning I'd hook out with some of the setup stuff and log in and you know going over things if the cars were out racing or whatever else. So the tuning itself I didn't really start until probably 2016, 2017, on my own. I always done it with Jim Overseen sort of thing before that.
Andre
Host
12:43
Yeah, okay. So back in these days, what sort of ECUs was the mainstream that you're seeing through the door?
Conn
Guest
12:50
We've done a lot. We've got BoxMotec. Back in the day Corridum was one of the first people to sort of be on the Motec. I'm going to say Dan Wagon. We're using Motec predominantly in a lot of the cars back from the M8, m4s and then progressed to the M800s. We're going from there. So we usually used to only use that on all the higher end stuff, on all the more serious cars. Back then you obviously had your Haltex and Microtex and stuff like that, the old Wolf ECUs as well, ems that sort of thing. But nowadays, honestly, we don't really play with any of those. It's mainly Haltec, motec, mtron. They're pretty much the main three that we'll use these days.
Andre
Host
13:26
I think that's probably similar to most performance workshops. They sort of tend to gravitate towards a handful of different ECU brands that kind of fit the requirements and price point of the customer base, because, as you say, sort of Motec back in the day of the Gold Box, now it's the M1. But that is obviously a higher priced product compared to the likes of Haltec, for example. So we had a couple, but that we chose just based on what the customer's requirements were, would you say, though obviously there's an element of learning the user interface and software for a particular brand of ECU, but would you say that your skill set, and once you actually know how to tune, it's not too much of a drama to adapt to a new platform.
Conn
Guest
14:07
Yeah, pretty much, once you obviously understand your fundamentals with everything, then really just finding where each table is. Every ECU manufacturer uses different terminology things. So sometimes you jump on a Haltec and you're trying to find something that's label-ish and what's in the Motec or vice versa. So sometimes you just sort of adjust. Oh see, I'm on a Haltec, not a Motec, so you just got to adjust to that when you're on them. Pretty much.
Andre
Host
14:31
I think the other element, though, that is important, and I have this question come up quite a bit what ECU should I run?
14:37
And this is from a customer's perspective, and my answer there's always the same whatever your tuner is going to recommend.
14:45
And I think there's this sort of belief out there that if I buy the most expensive ECU that's on the market, well I'm going to get the best job, I'm going to get the best results and I'm going to make the most power.
14:54
And the reality is, if you took an M1 ECU which we'll talk about in a bit more detail, but it is a reasonably complex ECU well, let's say, bosch Motorsport is something that is genuinely at the top level. It's very complex and if you took that to a tuner that had never tuned anything other than a Haltec A, they're probably going to take a lot longer to tune because they're going to need to learn this new system, but B for their first job on a new platform, they're probably going to get a subpar result because they don't know all of the nuances of that platform. So what I'm getting at here is versus a 10,000 euro Bosch Motorsport ECU or a $2,500 Haltec, you're probably actually going to get a better result with the tuner that knows the Haltec inside and out, and they're going to do it faster, so you agree with that.
Conn
Guest
15:39
Yeah, of course. Of course. That's the first thing because I get asked by a lot of other people from. They don't necessarily have to be at the shop. They come to their shop and I just don't speak to your tuner. Whoever's tuning your car, you go with what they want, forget what I'm telling you, because what works for me might not work for someone else.
Andre
Host
15:54
And then the other element is people want to not take that advice because they've already got built up in their mind right from the start of a project car build I want to run this ECU because probably they've seen it out there or in magazines or on the internet and that's sort of their predetermined for that particular platform. But yeah again, the other element with that is I think sometimes there's a belief that you're going to get sort of pigeonholed into a particular ECU from a performance workshop because that shop is going to make more money on the product and I mean I can't say that that's not the case for some shops but across the board I'd say that is very rare. They're going to try and choose the best ECU for your requirements, something that they know they can get the results out of. Yeah, of course. Alright. So moving back to your experience tuning, you said you started with your own car, with Jim overseeing that. How long did you take before you felt comfortable and proficient with tuning?
Conn
Guest
16:50
Well, comfortable was. How long did I take? Look, it wasn't really until I took over the business with Oma that I actually had no choice but to feel comfortable Jumping the deep end. Yeah, pretty much a lot of what I've done has been thrown in the deep end. To be honest, from engine building to tuning, it was literally the first serious car I'd done from scratch would have been WarGDR.
Andre
Host
17:12
Oh, wow, okay.
Conn
Guest
17:14
So the first one I'd done from go to waste sort of thing. So it was definitely nerve wracking, that sort of thing. Yeah, how can I put it? You know, you know what you're doing, but at the same time you got to back yourself as well. So it is a bit of a confidence thing as well to back yourself, to trust your judgement and what you're doing. And with every car it's always different. You know what I mean.
17:34
Still today I can tune a car and go to the track for the first time and I'll be nervous Because I don't feel confident in what I've done. I know I've doubled and tripled and could triple check everything. You still have that, those notes, until the car does its first lap or first run and you come back and get yeah, okay, we're all good, let's go, definitely. So you just don't know the don't has one thing attract something else. So and you know it's been I can't say I've had any real big hiccups. Those three definitely been a lot of learning on the way, but nothing too drastic. Do you know what I mean?
Andre
Host
18:06
I think a lot of people assume that in the process of learning how to tune, you're going to break dozens of engines along the way. What would you say to that?
Conn
Guest
18:15
I don't agree with that. I always try here on the side of portion, I try to be conservative and again that's one of the reasons I guess I don't do too much. Each union as well. I like to have to put it feel the car, hear the car. You know when something's not right by hearing it. When you're on a computer screen looking at, you know a bunch of numbers from the other side of the world. You can't always get that feeling that sort of thing. So numbers are one thing, but feeling it, hearing it, understanding, there's another thing as well.
Andre
Host
18:43
Yeah, I agree, I had some experience doing some remote tuning with a couple of drag cars over in Germany and it's just the weirdest experience. I was sort of team viewing into the ECU and you sort of see, during a ramp run on the dyno, you'd see the cursor moving through and it's just the weirdest experience. There's no noise, nothing, and then sort of after the run, a minute later, I'd get seen a dyno plot. It's just odd. It kind of just removes some of the senses that I think you subtly rely on. That might not be that obvious.
Conn
Guest
19:15
Yeah, I agree. I agree I'm big on hearing it and sort of feeling I've been in the car and actually getting the feel of the car.
Andre
Host
19:22
Absolutely. Coming back to braking engines to learn, first of all, absolutely agree with you. I don't think that you should be braking engines. There are some nice elements to this that I want to talk about, though, because, first of all, if you understand the sort of air fuel ratios you should be targeting for a given load let's say boost pressure and fuel then you should be able to achieve those, and those should be safe, so you shouldn't be melting engine components because you're too lean. The ignition timing is a little bit trickier, but, I mean, I'm a big fanatic for using knock control law. Generally, I'll be using audio knock detection. We'll talk about that a little bit more as well.
19:56
Again, if you keep the engine away from detonation. That's really the two biggest killers of the engine. The third one, of course, is exceeding the power handling capabilities of the engine components, and I find that is a little bit of a different situation, because, particularly with what you're doing building and tuning some serious drag cars and you're trying to beat world records you're kind of getting into this uncharted territory and at that point you can end up exceeding the power handling capability of some of the components. I think that's a little bit different, but damaging an engine because you ran it into detonation or the air fuel ratio was too lean. Those are things that you absolutely should be able to avoid, do you agree?
Conn
Guest
20:38
I look at that as pretty much negligence, someone that's not really respecting another person's pride and joy and their own reputation, to be honest. So some people just want to throw XYZ timing figures in and run it and you can literally see I see some pictures of dyno graphs and I can literally see that there's an issue with either fuel delivery or the tune side of things and they'll rev it and the thing will go down at 10, away far as an indexing and other things leaning off to 13. You're like okay, there's something right there, that's not. They let that go. That's not going to be right. So I do see that. I do see a lot of people tuning around issues, whereas I don't like tuning around issues. If the car has an issue, whether I'm going to upset someone or not, I'm going to tell them this and this isn't right because I prefer to cover my own ass and make sure if it's not right on the dyno, it's not going to be right on the road, it's only going to get worse on the road.
Andre
Host
21:29
I think the thing that's tough sometimes is you've got a car owner there watching their dyno session and you know something's not right.
21:36
Maybe it's not a major, but something's not quite right and the sort of that assumed pressure to get the job done so that the customer can drive their car away. But the reality is if you put a bandaid on a problem or ignore a problem, overlook it, your reputation that gets affected at the end of the day because, let's say, it's just poor drivability or something like that. I mean that customer has then got to live with that and of course the tune is the last person to touch the car. You're a hero when everything goes right and you go from hero to zero real quick when it's not Just let's come back a little bit to tuning higher powered engines, if. Well, more to the point, when you're getting started, what would you suggest for people listening who want to learn how to tune would be a good base model to sort of have a play around, something relatively safe that they can learn and develop their skills on without too much risk of damaging it.
Conn
Guest
22:28
I think the NA stuff will probably be the easiest to start learning on. To be honest, I actually find tuning NA stuff rewarding. I enjoy it because you're literally trying to find every kilowatt and you need to start thinking outside the square rather than just throwing out a couple pounds of boosting or something. So I enjoy tuning the NA stuff as well. But now then we get a little pulsar come in, or you know, 4age or something like that, and it's like okay, let's go for some bit of fun.
Andre
Host
22:53
I absolutely agree. It's very satisfying, actually, both from an engine building and development side, as well as the tuning side. You've just got nowhere to hide with a naturally aspirated engine. You don't have that band aid of chucking another couple of pounds of boost at it to get the power numbers, so, and when you get that combination absolutely singing, it is very satisfying.
Conn
Guest
23:13
Yeah, you might come and I leave you and it makes another 10 kilowatts and the customers over the moon and they'll go drive it and they're like it's the best thing in the world.
Andre
Host
23:22
Alright. So coming back from that, so yeah, I think, naturally, aspirated definitely is a good place to get started. What would you say, though? I mean again, turbocharged engines being more common these days, and obviously everyone's starting to push the boundaries of power. If someone is built up their own project car, and maybe it's a 800 horsepower capable 2JZ or RB26, is that a possible starting point for your first tuning project, or are you just asking for trouble?
Conn
Guest
23:48
It depends on how adventurous this person wants to be, how conservative they want to be. I think if you start conservative, leave everything on gate pressure, get your fuel mixtures where you want and just leave some very conservative timing figures in it, then you can start and build on that and then obviously from there you can just slowly creep up on it. Slow and steady wins the race with this stuff. That's on the firm believer of that.
Andre
Host
24:11
And I think it's important to point out that if it is, for example, that 800 horsepower combo I just dreamed up, chances are the first pull on the dyno is not going to be 800 horsepower. As you mentioned, you're going to start on waste gate pressure. The lowest pressure that you can achieve with the spring and the waste gate, let's say that, might be 12 psi. Maybe you could even start with a 7 psi spring in the gate to start with and get a tune dialled in at a much lower power level, maybe 400-500 horsepower, and then just step up very slowly. I think it is possible.
24:41
I don't know if I'd recommend it, but the element here is that your tuning window to keep the engine safe is obviously going to be a lot narrower on a highly strung turbocharged engine than a low power NA and the tuning principles remain exactly the same. But of course, when you're just getting started you're going to be a little bit slower to recognise things and make these changes and if you're outside that window it is going to be possible to damage the engine quite quickly. Let's talk a little bit about dinos and specifically, what dinos have you got at CRD?
Conn
Guest
25:14
We've got two. So we've got a four drive, chassis, mainline and hub as well with a mainline.
Andre
Host
25:19
So you're in a really good position here to give us a comparison. And the rolling road chassis dyno kind of always was the gold standard in dyno technology. More recently, I think almost everyone around the world that's building serious high power cars has sort of moved towards the hub dinos. From your perspective, pros and cons of each.
Conn
Guest
25:41
If you want to tune for horsepower and full throttle stuff, I think the mainline hub dyno is probably the go to. It repeats much better. You don't have the issue of tires getting hot and obviously soaking the horsepower as well and it's very controlled. You don't have to worry about trying to steer the thing on the dyno on a high horsepower thing. But for me personally, if you want to tune for drivability, even flat chief and stuff like that, I prefer the chassis roller dyno.
26:11
I don't feel I can get the par throttle tune where I want it on the hub. I'm not happy with how that can be put. Personally I'm not happy with how it sort of tunes on the hub. You don't have that rolling in the no-share, whereas on the chassis I can get it into loadsites of places that I can't really get it to on the hub, if you know what I mean. So I'd tune from. I'd either do more of my base stuff on the chassis and then move to the hub or I'd start on the hub and then finish off on the chassis. So depending on the car.
Andre
Host
26:39
Let's just dive into that a little bit further for those who maybe sort of aren't up to speed. So the problem on the hub dyno is let's say you're at 3000 RPM and you're doing some light throttle tuning so you want to dial in your fuel and ignition sites, basically just barely breathing on the throttle. The problem is because there's no inertia in the dyno. As you come out of the throttle to get into those lower loadsites, the dyno just slows down so the RPM drops and you can't get to the sites you want to, whereas the rolling rod, on the other hand, a lot more inertia in those big rollers, so it tends to hold the actual road speed, which in turn holds the engine RPM so you can get down lower. And I think I reckon this is an area that the majority of tuners don't think about, know about or just can't be bothered doing so I've based this on the number of cars that I've retuned where that part throttle drivability is just absolutely garbage. Do you agree with that?
Conn
Guest
27:30
Yeah, I agree with that For me. I don't think you can do part throttle stuff on the hub dyno properly at all. If you do, then the problem is you can't even do it on the road properly.
Andre
Host
27:39
It's still the same situation where, on the road, as you roll out of the throttle, obviously the same deal occurs the car's going to slow down. The interesting part, which I think a lot of people don't realise, is that on the road you can get into areas of the map and it's almost always these low load areas that you cannot get to. On the dyno, let's say you've got a manual transmission, so you've got a locked ratio between engine RPM and wheel speed, and you do this on the flat. So same thing 3000 RPM, part throttle, roll out of the throttle, it slows down. However, if you're now going down a slight hill, if you roll out of the throttle, it's going to maintain that 3000 RPM. So now you're in a zone that you just couldn't get to on the dyno and of course we'll try and extrapolate our fuel and ignition numbers down into those sites we can't see on the dyno. But it's probably not going to be right.
28:27
So for me, that was why I always and I still do try and confirm my tunes out on the road once I've been on the dyno. So I'll have everything. I'd say it's going to be 98%, 96%, right, but then it allows me to confirm those light load areas make sure that my part throttle mixtures are exactly what I was seeing on the dyno, but I also quite often will see small fluctuations in the wide open throttle air fuel ratio and maybe my boost targets aren't quite right, and I think this sort of comes down to, no matter how good the dyno is, it's very difficult to accurately replicate the air flow that we see at 100, maybe 150 kilometres now on the road in a dyno cell, and that changes things. Is that sort of your experience too?
Conn
Guest
29:10
I agree.
29:11
I agree you know you might get a perfect on the dyno and then on the road your fuel mixtures are very different.
29:17
So I do make sure that we road test them and I'm not interested, to be honest, in so much of the full power stuff on the road. I sort of tend to focus more on the path model. The last thing I need, as a shop owner as well, is to get pinned in third gear with one of these things at 7-8000 rpm. It's not going to be good. So I try to focus on the path model stuff. If I'm going to give it a little bit of a squirt on the road, I'll do it in a low gear, maybe second gear or something like that, just sort of coming on to boost, just to make sure my fuel mixes are correct. And then I'm sort of confident. From there I'll see a pattern, I'll see what they're doing, anything where they need to be. Then I know the rest of it's going to be fine as well. But then obviously you have your added setup of the engine protection, closed loop control, which gives you a bit of extra safety as well, yeah, definitely.
Andre
Host
30:04
Yeah, that's one of the advantages I've seen with the advances in technology and the ECUs, particularly around not controlling closed loop fuel control. I mean a lot of people, I think, are using these instead of doing the job properly in the first place. The reality is that that's not what they're there for. But there are a safety backstop If your fueling's just a little bit off or maybe customer gets a bad batch of fuel and it runs into a bit of knock.
Conn
Guest
30:29
Of course, it definitely helps.
Andre
Host
30:30
The other element in terms of differences between the hub dyno and the rolling road. So I kind of started my career with a DynaPak hub dyno, which was a great product but quite limited in terms of its torque handling capability as we started building more and more powerful engines. But people always argued that the rolling road's much quicker to get the car set up on the dyno than taking the wheels off, jacking it up and getting onto a hub dyno. Then I started with HPA with a mainline four wheel drive hub dyno and I actually found, particularly for the high powered cars, it was almost the complete opposite strapping them down properly, particularly so that the car was also going to get good traction. That would take me usually as much time as it would to put it on a hub dyno. And then the other element you kind of touched on that.
31:19
I found a lot of inconsistencies between the start of a tuning session when the tyres were cold and you do maybe 10 ramp runs. The tyres obviously going to get warm. That affects the power reading. The tyre pressure affects the power reading.
31:34
Another real one that stuck out in my mind is a ZL1 Camaro that we were tuning for one of our worked examples. The tyres that were on it were basically through to the canvas. So I talked to the owner and said hey look, these tyres are no good, I don't want to risk having one blow out on the dyno. And we put new tyres on it and just between those old rinse tyres that were through to the canvas and the new set of tyres there was something like about a 40 horsepower difference. So there's a lot of complexities there that I think people overlook, whereas on the hub dyno the repeatability is far better. So for me I think, particularly if I'm developing a car over time for a customer, he's going to come back with that car in six months because he's made some other modifications. I don't want to be risking sort of chasing my tail with a 40 horsepower deficit, but the reality is because they've changed tyres Again. Do you sort of see similar situations?
Conn
Guest
32:26
No, I agree. Any development work we want to do, I do it on the hub. For that reason, because you just can't get the repeatability someone will change the tyres. I put different wheels on it, different tyre pressures. Isn't that even the way the bed's set up the weight strap? There's too many variables to get an exact number each and every time.
Andre
Host
32:43
Important to point out as well. This isn't knocking mainline. I believe that they make the best product out there. This is a situation you're going to see on every rolling road.
Conn
Guest
32:52
Yeah, exactly, we've got two mainline machines, so over the moon we've made one.
Andre
Host
32:56
Alright. So, in terms of tuning more powerful cars, let's jump into drag engines, which are one of my favourite topics to talk about. Really, I think, as an engine tuner and an engine builder, this is where you really kind of get to prove what you're capable of, which, unfortunately, in street cars, the targets, the aims, what we're trying to achieve, are very different, and that's not always the case. You're probably best known at this stage for John 2, which is an R32 GTR which I believe at the moment we're recording. This still holds the world record for the R32 GTR or GTRs in general.
Conn
Guest
33:30
Yep, it does. It's currently still got the world record for the fastest GTR. Quickest and fastest GTR import radial all wheel drive. What else to be honest there's about? I think there's about 6 or 7 of them, that's got to be honest. And that's still at 637 to 24, from memory.
Andre
Host
33:47
Right, okay, I mean, that's no joke. And before we started recording this as well, we talked about the fact this is still I'm putting this in air quotes but a street car. Yeah, how streetable is this package? Can you take it through the Mac as drive through?
Conn
Guest
34:01
You know what you actually could drive the car on the street. To be honest, it's still streetable in that respect, but I guess these days the cars are gone, they've got really small tanks, now this and that, so you're trying to keep the weight down. So that's really where your main limitation is in terms of corner system. It's still got radiator, it's still got water going through the block, it's still got water going through the head. So there's no concerns on that side of it. It's mainly just a fuel tank capacity, to be honest.
Andre
Host
34:27
So we're not talking here about a tube frame drag car with a carbon fibre body that can run for 400 metres and then has to be immediately shut down.
Conn
Guest
34:35
No, no, he drives it back if he doesn't pull the shoot tool. Drive it back after the 6-3. From memory I think he drove back to the shop. The car is still drivable. It's still got a full chassis, no chassis connectors, nothing fancy done there, it's literally just got a 6 point cage and that's pretty much it. To be honest, it really shouldn't be done what it's done. When you look at what it's done and then, if you haven't looked under the car, you'll just walk away scratching your head.
Andre
Host
35:00
Now I've got some personal involvement with GTR drag racing in that. For a period of time back in my old business I was involved with heat treatments here in New Zealand and at the time I finished up with them they held the world record for the GTR. I think that thing went as fast as 741 or something like that. And I remember tuning that car I think we were around 1400 wheel horsepower back at that point and it ran with a Liberty air shifted, clutchless box. And if you had that thing set up on kill, it was sketchy watching Reese pilot that car down the track and it was using both lanes some of the time and I sort of looked at that and thought, well, how much more power can we actually put into it? And at that time if someone had said 6.3 is possible, I'd said absolutely not. What is the difference? That's got you over a full second faster than what the benchmark was at that point.
Conn
Guest
35:55
Yeah, obviously the first one being the horsepower side. Things have progressed a lot in the whole RB development side of things, but I think the big thing which is, I guess, made them get down in those sort of times and much more stable from the transmission side, You're running an auto there.
36:10
Yeah, it's running a turbo 400, so the turbo 400 obviously with the converter. You can spec your converter how you want it, but it does soften it up a lot. We see it with our high end street manual cars which you know you've got Go32 or WarGDR, both from the servants. They're pulling gears and they only get that heat treatment. You know, change in lanes, want to change lanes, sort of thing, and a lot of that is, I think, the gear. Obviously, with each gear change you're unloading the suspension and that sort of thing as well and your power delivery is ramping back in. You want to keep your turbo speed up to keep that smoother, but at the same time you're pulling the gear changes it's inevitably going to unsever the car for a fraction of a second, which can cause the car to become bed skating.
Andre
Host
36:51
Yeah, and I mean that's exactly what we saw. It was on the gear shifts, which is when it wanted to move around and, as clutchless boxes don't need torque reduction to allow the shift to complete, but of course when you go from second to third gear, the engine RPM still has to be pulled down by whatever that gear ratio change, maybe 800, 1200 RPM, and that's what kinda makes the car get a little bit skater.
Conn
Guest
37:14
So yeah, I mean, I think and you don't have that sponge of a torque converter, soaking it up and softening it up Exactly so.
Andre
Host
37:20
Yeah, I mean, every fast GTR these days is running a similar combination with the auto In terms of the torque converter, though one of the problems we do see in a drag application is it can be hard to get the torque converter up on the stall with a small capacity engine and a big turbocharger. Basically, it doesn't make enough torque to actually drive the converter initially. So how are you getting around that? Are you using nitrous or anything to stall it up?
Conn
Guest
37:44
We use nitrous to get it up on stall. Some cars we leave it on, some cars you turn it off. I'm going to say pretty much all of them. It comes off and then if we need a nitrous we'll turn it up. I can't go on the track, so I like to only use a nitrous if we need it. If we don't need that extra horse power, I try to use all the best we can before we go. Ok, let's send a nitrous on.
Andre
Host
38:04
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. In terms of the torque converter itself. How critical is that? And this is an area I haven't had much involvement with auto drag cars, but let's talk about the stall point for a start. What's that even mean?
Conn
Guest
38:17
Well, that's pretty much a stall of the converter. So what your stated, combined with your cover and that sort of thing, when your converter actually starts locking up, so that's a bit of a tricky one as well, because every car, every driver, likes their cars different. Every chassis can only take so much, so you're constantly evolving that you go too loose, you won't go fast, and then you're going to hit the point where you start throwing power at it and you just don't have enough convertor. So you need to make a change on your stator or your cover depends on how you're going about your things, so it's constantly evolving. Each bit of horsepower you throw you're going to need to tweak your converter.
Andre
Host
38:52
The other element there with the torque converter is basically, no matter what you do, there's always going to be some slip inherent in the converter. And by that I mean 8000 RPM into the converter from the crankshaft is going to be, not 8000 RPM coming out the other side. There's going to be some amount of slip. So generally, all things being equal, if we look at a manual gearbox versus an auto with a converter, generally for the same horsepower, the auto will be a little bit lower in mile an hour.
Conn
Guest
39:22
Yes, generally will. A manual is always going to show a true horsepower in the back end, but it won't necessarily make it a quicker car either. You might have a lower mile an hour at a faster time, obviously, with your automatic.
Andre
Host
39:34
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, while the mile an hour is a nice bragging number, it's really the ET that drag racing's all about. So I mean, if we can go quicker with a slightly slower mile an hour, we'll absolutely have at it. Yeah, of course, let's come back to the engine, because that's obviously a big area that we've seen development across essentially all of the sport combat or import drag racing. Safe to assume here that you're running a billet block now?
Conn
Guest
39:59
Yes, we're running a billet block still a wet block, but yeah, billet blocks now there. Obviously they go too for anything making horse down there.
Andre
Host
40:07
What was the limitation essentially on the cast iron RB block? Where did you sort of start seeing them falling apart?
Conn
Guest
40:13
We went 720, I think it was 191, 192 with a cast block that was sleeves, that was with an RD block, still had water in it, so it was only half ground filled. We got a far as 720, but then you just get to the point where the blocks are twisting. They don't have the rigidity and then all of a sudden you start pushing water and really our last thing would have been a GDR first, without our last straw where we just got nut. It was too dangerous burst the bottom cooler hose because it lifted the head and the car went sideways across the finish line. So we're like, okay, that's enough time to make the change. We could have gone dry deck and left the cast, but I didn't feel there was any need to to go to the next level. We've gone. You know what we need to be alloyed block, alloy rods, because we're still running steel rods back there as well and you wouldn't feed them in the. You wouldn't feed the alloy rods in the cast block unless you've done some serious mods.
Andre
Host
41:01
Yeah, I think that it's easy to overlook the safety element of going to a billet block. You know, as you say, there you lift the cylinder heads and for those who understand what we're talking about here, the cylinder pressure. When we start running huge power levels, lots of boost, the cylinder pressure can be enough to literally lift the cylinder head. Only needs to be a few thousandths of an inch or flex it away from the deck surface on the block and then combustion pressure can escape out to the head gasket, then into the coolant passages and if that pushes water out, maybe it blows up a radiator hose or pushes it out the header tank and gets under a tyre. Well, you know, it can be incredibly dangerous. So, yeah, there's some advantages there, for sure.
41:43
In terms of the block itself, you know there's a lot of combinations that people run in the RB world. If we look at the conventional cast iron block, there's the RB26 block. Obviously there's the RD block that you refer to, the diesel block, there's the RB30, which has become popular to get some more capacity, and then there's a variety of different rotating assemblies to get different capacity levels. What's your sort of go to? What have you found that works well? To retain sort of the ability to still rev high. But maybe you know, if you've got a bit more capacity, a little bit more low end torque and response.
Conn
Guest
42:16
We're running pretty much 90, I'm going to say 99% of our builds. All the big ones these days are all Billa Block 3.2 litre Nero kits and they've released I'm not sure if you're aware theY Journal struck kit as well. So you end up with a bearing which is 30% more wider than what the factory run is. So you end up with something that can take a bit more punishment as well, and that's pretty much our go to these days. To be honest, every big car we've got is running the 3.2 litre Y Journal kit.
Andre
Host
42:45
Okay, if we look at the block, the rotating assembly, etc. With that rotating assembly itself, the Nero parts you're using, have you found a sort of a limitation in terms of life expectancy on those parts or power handling capability?
Conn
Guest
43:00
At this stage, though, the only real limitations you've got is with a full, with a drag extreme kit. You've got aluminium rods. You've just got, obviously, your serviceability on the rods how often you do them will really come down to what you've put the car through as well.
Andre
Host
43:13
Yeah, sure. So with those alloy rods, they are a consumable item. They will fatigue. So generally, if you don't replace them at the right intervals, you're going to end up having one break.
Conn
Guest
43:24
Yes, it can get up pretty quick.
Andre
Host
43:26
From a tuning perspective we see alloy rods being the sort of go to option for most serious drag applications and we can sort of get away with it in a drag application because you're not putting a lot of miles on the engine, obviously. So alloy rods in a street engine not very common. From a tuning perspective and an engine reliability perspective, where is the advantage in that alloy rod over a steel rod?
Conn
Guest
43:49
You can throw a lot more horsepower at it. Prolonged bearing loss. It's a wind bluer situation because you're getting bearing life, but at the same time you need to replace your rod more often. So which are better to evens? At least I'm going to say the aluminium rod, because you can still throw a lot more at it than what a steel rod can take. It's pretty much it behaves like a shock absorber, pretty much, whereas a steel rod is a steel rod. There's no giving it. So with an aluminium rod it can take a lot more punishment, a lot higher similar pressures.
Andre
Host
44:21
So the downside with the steel rod is essentially there's no shock absorption effect with it. It will basically supply that shock loading from the cylinder pressure down through the piston, through the rod, add into the bearing so you can end up hammering out the connecting rod. Big end bearings correct.
Conn
Guest
44:38
Yes, correct. Obviously with aluminium rod it's a soft material, so the rod takes more of the punishment than what the bearing does itself.
Andre
Host
44:45
The other element that sort of always becomes problematic once the boost levels and cylinder pressure start to creep up, is head gasket integrity. What have you sort of gravitated towards there in terms of head sealing technology?
Conn
Guest
44:58
We got obviously the firing setup which we use with a copper gasket. We haven't had a head gasket issues with a little bit of block, whether it be a full wet block or a dry deck block. We've never had a gasket issue. The deck thickness obviously plays a big part in that as well. It's a lot thicker block You're having to start, which actually go down Almost the middle of a block, which does help in the integrity of the block itself. So you do minimize all your flex and that sort of thing as well, which plays a big part in, obviously, the head gasket integrity.
Andre
Host
45:29
Definitely In terms of the fact that you're still wet block there with this billet block. How does that work in terms of the water passing between the block and the head, as they're still coming through the deck surface? Or are you doing this externally to keep it a dry deck and prevent problems if you did lift the head?
Conn
Guest
45:46
Yep, so on June it's a dry deck but a wet block, but we still have the factory alternator on it, factory water pump, and we pretty much feed the water from the back of the block into the head itself and then come out through the front. So, and at least that way we're pulling the back of the head, pulling the whole head pretty much thoroughly and without any issues. So the factory water pump seems to be holding up pretty good, providing that cooling for us.
Andre
Host
46:08
So moving on to the the cylinder heads, I'm assuming you're still dealing with what started life as a factory casting here.
Conn
Guest
46:14
Correct, correct. Unfortunately there's nothing else on the market. There's a few things sort of in the plans in the back room, but to date we're still using all the stock casting.
Andre
Host
46:22
So I mean it's not a bad head as far as a high RPM, high boost, performance application goes with the bucket style valve actuation. Are there any limiting factors with that cylinder head that are holding you back from making more power?
Conn
Guest
46:37
Pretty much the strength of it and the thickness of it, because once you open the ports up, you open them up too much. You can start cracking heads in that as well. So it's a very fine line with how much you can open it up To make the horse go. You want to make and then obviously keep a structural integrity of it as well.
Andre
Host
46:52
So compromises in the name of the game.
Conn
Guest
46:54
Yes, unfortunately it has to be at the moment.
Andre
Host
46:56
Is it safe to assume that at some point with the continued development of this engine that we're going to see someone come out with a Billet head or an aftermarket cast head that kind of fixes some of these inherent problems?
Conn
Guest
47:08
Yeah, I think both options are on the cards because not everyone's going to go by a Billet head. The problem is with Nissan. These days they're charging that much for a core and you can't even get them. You know, you might have a 12 month wait for a new core these days, if you can even get them in 12 months. So it's pretty much. They've just about discontinued it. It's up out at the moment.
Andre
Host
47:27
Yeah, I mean it must be pretty close. I mean it's probably still a benefit that you can actually still buy the stock castings. I mean there's a lot of the cars of that generation around that age now that you know you just can't buy new beer castings from the manufacturers. So I guess you've got that advantage, even if it is an expensive and long wait.
Conn
Guest
47:46
Yeah, unfortunately you just got to put your order in and wait.
Andre
Host
47:49
Yeah, okay, let's come back to the rest of the package here. And obviously the engine's critical To support the power, but really it's the turbocharger that's the key to getting the airflow into the engine. What turbocharger are you running on at the moment?
Conn
Guest
48:04
We're running the precision one ten on it.
Andre
Host
48:05
Okay, and how has the turbo development sort of gone over the time you've been running the car?
Conn
Guest
48:10
How did you start, where did you start, and sort of we started with Promod 88 when we bought that turbo off the main precision dealer in Australia. He looked at us and he goes where he's going. It's too big, you're never going to get it up, you're never going to run out of turbo. Next, you know, we went to the 91, then went to the 94, then went to the 98 and then from the 98 we just literally Come what happened. Something happened one day, I think we we had an issue with the cylinder head and then we pulled the 98 off and we're going you know what and stuff and let's just put the 110 on it. So we put the 110 on. The 110 was actually meant to be for the promod. Then we ended up throwing that turbo on drill. So it's pretty much gone from 88 to 110 and you're still looking for more turbo as well.
Andre
Host
48:53
So I'm interested what is the development path when you keep stepping up that turbo size? I mean, obviously the bigger turbo has the potential to make a lot more power. But again, coming back to that, you've got it what is still a relatively small capacity engine. Getting the thing to get up on the stall gets harder with the bigger turbo, so does it make it much harder to get the car to 60 ft to get off the line?
Conn
Guest
49:17
Well, the 110 was probably a noticeable difference from 98 Because we went from 98, we skipped the 102, skipped the 106 and went straight to the 110. That was a fair bit different. So you've got to be careful, obviously, trying to get the car out of the hole so it doesn't fall into a hole where it can't make the boost either. So it's a very fine line to make that work as well. That's where your torque converter comes into play as well.
Andre
Host
49:39
On the same note, though, you start to get to those much bigger turbo chargers. If you can get them to spool, maybe using nitrous et cetera, lower in the RPM, I'm guessing you can end up getting yourself pretty dangerously close to running the turbo into surge. Is that a consideration or an issue with these bigger turbos?
Conn
Guest
49:56
We haven't had too much of an issue with them coming into surge, but yes, you are right, they can come into a bit of a surge slot which you need to get over as well. So we haven't had too much of an issue with them surging though.
Andre
Host
50:06
Okay, I mean you're still quite a bigger capacity engine to some of the ones we see. So the anti surge drive by wire throttle set ups on which are lots of Colin Wilsh's Eclipse with the 4G63, and I mean obviously it's a smaller capacity engine so more prone to running into surge. On that note of surge, though, we see compressor maps from the likes of Garrett Bourguarnah, and there's a line on the left hand side of the compressor map which is the surge line, so you kind of know where you're going to be and when you're likely to run yourself into surge. Bourguarnah, for example, have their match bot software where you can kind of plot your engine and find the compressor map that's going to suit it. Precision, don't do this. No compressor maps, how much of a problem is it?
Conn
Guest
50:51
You know what. We've asked once, twice, three times and you've got nowhere. You can't get them. I don't know if they've got them and they just don't release them or what not, but we've just gone. You know what? It's not a thing that we're going to get, so we don't sort of don't look into it too much, if you know what I mean. Yeah, unfortunately it's gotten to that because you can't get a look at it, you can't control it. Don't worry about it sort of thing. You know what I mean.
Andre
Host
51:13
I mean, let's be honest, it doesn't seem like it's being that much of an issue, because if you walk around any drag meeting you're going to see plenty of precision turbos, so obviously it's working for a lot of competitors. But it is interesting that they don't release, or maybe don't have, these compressor maps or something that a lot of people do rely on.
Conn
Guest
51:31
I think surely they've got them and they just don't release them. They've got to have them. You'd expect them to have them?
Andre
Host
51:36
I would have thought so. Do they give you any guidance in terms of maximum turbo speed or anything that you shouldn't step over if you want to keep that turbo alive?
Conn
Guest
51:46
We've asked a question and we've been told to keep them under 110,000.
Andre
Host
51:50
Okay, and you're obviously monitoring turbo speed in your package, so you can. Yes, yeah, of course we do. Yeah, how close are you running to that line?
Conn
Guest
51:58
We're still a fair bit off. The most I've seen is 106, but we're still offered, so it's not too bad.
Andre
Host
52:03
Alright, let's talk about the actual numbers. So what power is this engine making? What boost pressure do you use to make that power and what RPM are you revving it to?
Conn
Guest
52:13
Look, we haven't ran this car on the dyno since we had the 94 on our full tilt, so it's been a fair while since we've actually put on the dyno with what we're racing with at the moment, a run at a safe power level. How much power? I mean 224 miles an hour. At that weight it's got to be making upwards of 25-2700. But, like I said, we try not to do too much on the dyno. I feel they're under a lot more stress on the dyno than they are on the track. I prefer to see it on the track than actually waste of a dyno.
Andre
Host
52:43
Okay, interesting. Yeah, I'll jump into that in a moment, but before we do boost and RPM, Boost and RPM.
Conn
Guest
52:48
Rpm we're obviously seeing two of that. We've seen 11-4. We've seen 11-4, we try to keep it around 11,000. Occasionally Rob gets to be happy and goes a bit more. Boost we've seen 90 96, I think it was.
Andre
Host
53:03
Oh, that's so dangerously close to.
Conn
Guest
53:06
Yeah, that's the most we've seen out of it. I was disappointed we didn't get 100 that time because I was pushing to try and get 100.
Andre
Host
53:12
I like round numbers. I think I'd have done another run and just tried a bit more.
Conn
Guest
53:16
Yeah, we did try that but, like I said, we haven't run it with the 110 at that boost level. So with the 110 we haven't run it at that boost level yet. So we're actually struggling with the chassis more than horsepower at the moment, than trying to get the car to utilise all the power it's got.
Andre
Host
53:30
Yeah, it does become a bit of a balancing case when you're making this much power. I mean everyone would think that, well, we want to go faster, just make more power. But that's fine if you can actually get it to the track, but if it's going up in wheel spin you're not going anywhere, right yeah?
Conn
Guest
53:43
exactly right, exactly right.
Andre
Host
53:44
So you sort of go around in a bit of a circle chasing chassis setup, improving the traction.
Conn
Guest
53:50
Yeah, it's funny because you find sometimes the things that work for you when you're running you know seven or five, you know eight sector passes don't work when you start running 690s. But then all of a sudden, the things that you need to do at 650s and under, you might sort of revisit a lot of those things as well. So what works at one power level doesn't necessarily work at another, but you can't rule that out either.
Andre
Host
54:11
I just wanted to take a moment out of our interview with Con to talk about a tuning starter package that I think you're really going to enjoy if you've enjoyed our chat with Con and maybe you want to go down a similar path and learn how to tune for yourself and traditionally this has been a difficult industry to break into, but we've made it as easy as possible. This package deal that we've put together includes essentially everything you need to know. It starts with our EFI tuning fundamentals course and, as its name implies, this teaches you the fundamentals of EFI tuning. You'll learn how the engine works, how it responds to fuel and ignition timing and what we're actually trying to achieve when we are tuning the engine. From here we'll move into our practical tuning courses, which gives you the option of choosing between our practical standalone or practical reflash tuning course. Standalone course perfect for those of you who want to learn how to tune an aftermarket standalone ECU such as a MoTeC, haltec Link or basically anything in between. The reflash tuning course perfect for those of you who want to learn how to reflash or retune the factory fitted ECU that came equipped in your car and increasingly popular method on late model cars. We're also including our understanding air fuel ratio course, which is, in my opinion, probably one of the most misunderstood topics in the world of EFI tuning. You'll learn how the fuel delivery affects the engine operation. You'll learn some safe starting air fuel ratios for a range of different engines and then, most importantly, you'll learn how to optimise the air fuel ratio to suit your engine, your fuel and your application.
55:46
Coming back to that practical tuning course for a moment, both of those courses I mentioned are generic, so it doesn't really matter what engine or tuning platform you're learning to tune on. These courses will have you covered and in both of those courses we also present a simple, easy to follow, step by step process that you can apply to your particular tuning job. Once you've gone through that, it's going to ensure that you don't overlook any critical steps, waste time or waste money or potentially end up skipping something that could end up damaging your expensive engine. Both of our practical courses also include a library of worked examples where you can watch that step by step process being applied on a wide range of different engines and different tuning platforms. Our starter package also includes 24 months of gold membership, which gives you access to our weekly live members webinars. If you can't watch live, you can watch our webinars in our archive. We've got over 300 hours of existing content and this is a gold mine if you want to advance your performance automotive knowledge. You'll also get access as a gold member to our members only forum, which is the best place to get reliable answers to your specific questions.
56:52
The total value of all of the courses in this package is over $870 USD. It is normally $417 USD, but you can use the coupon code CROIDIN100 and that's going to get you $100 off. So only $317 USD. This is an amazing deal. If you want to get stuck in learning how to tune, even using that coupon code, you are still protected with our 60 day no questions asked money back guarantee. So absolutely zero risk getting involved. Let's get back to our chat with Con now. Alright, let's come back to what you said about the use of the dyno and the fact that you're not running this thing sort of on kill on a tuning session on the dyno. I think most people listening would probably assume that you are running it on the dyno in exactly the same power level and tune up that you're using at the track, and you mentioned there that you find they're more stressed on the dyno. So what's your approach here? You're sort of getting a bassline and then tuning it, the track.
Conn
Guest
57:52
Yeah, generally I like to get a bit of a bassline from the tune. Once I've got my fuel curve right, I know the time we figure we need to be at. Obviously there's a fair few over there. So once we've got the fueling where we want it, I'll probably go up to, depending on the car, anywhere between 50 and 65 pounds of boost sort of thing, and after that I'll do the rest of the track. I find if you go too much if it was a manual car different story you could probably run it a bit more comfortably on the dyno. But with the autos you hear a flare up the converter and the thing just hits on the converter because the way it ramps up is very different as well. So I try not to do too much. And when you convert a flare enough like that it's putting a lot more stress on everything as well. So I'll get up to 65, 70 pound mark and then just go okay, let's do the rest of the track.
Andre
Host
58:35
So again, I think that will probably surprise a lot of people that you can actually tune an engine at this level at the track. Everyone assume that the dyno is the only place that you can do your tuning. So what are you looking at when you're at the track in order to get that tune up where it needs to be? What's the sort of inputs and feedback that you're looking at?
Conn
Guest
58:53
Obviously your EGT's your fuel and your lambda that's your main thing. You start tuning at the track as well as your boost, obviously, but that's more power management side of things as well. So say I've run a car at 70 on the dyno. I might only go out and start at 45 or 50 the first run just to make sure that everything's okay, and then just creep up on it, sort of as we go along.
Andre
Host
59:12
Again as well, just coming back to the fact that you've probably got more power in a lot of places than you can actually put to the track. If you've got this thing running as much power and boost as it can, what is the element of dialing the tune up in to suit the track conditions? Because, again, this track is always going to be different from one day to another. Even during the day, the track will evolve.
Conn
Guest
59:33
The main thing we obviously chase at the track is the power management side of things, the tune up. Once the tune up's done, it's going to be pretty close to where it needs to be. If it's running a little bit richer, I won't try and chase it too much unless you're trying to extract every last bit of horsepower out of it. Unless it's running lean and you need to add some more fuel, you won't really touch your fuel inside of things. Your timing's already set. You don't need to play with the timing. Your main thing, your chasing is really your power management, which enables you to obviously utilize the power that you've got.
Andre
Host
01:00:03
So, in terms of power management, you're really talking about how much boost pressure you're using down the track.
Conn
Guest
01:00:09
Yes, how much boost pressure you're using down the track and where you're bringing the power in, what you're taking off that and that sort of thing.
Andre
Host
01:00:15
Okay, alright, so in terms of that as well. Obviously with these big turbochargers there's a lot of inertia in the turbo, the wheel size, there's just a lot of mass there. So I've found that changing boost targets very, very quickly, the turbo just can be a little bit lazy to come up and change. So there's other techniques that can be used to modify the torque delivery as well, such as pulling timing to reduce torque instead of reducing boost, so that that way, when you get to a point where you can use all of the boost, you don't need to wait for that turbo to sort of spool up and the boost to increase. Do you do?
Conn
Guest
01:00:52
anything like that. We have played a little bit with the timing sort of things, but the cars, I guess, for us are not on the edge, especially with the big turbochargers like that. Sometimes if you pull a bit too much time in there as well, you can actually start generating boost as well, which increases horsepower as well. So we find probably the most important and most efficient way for us to do it is through the boost control. So we really got to make sure our boost control is on point, to make sure that the power is coming in where we want it. It seems to pretty much hit our targets where we want it, so we don't have that issue, okay well, let's talk about that boost control.
Andre
Host
01:01:28
What are you using there and how are you vering it down the track? Is this based on speed gear time, all of the above?
Conn
Guest
01:01:37
So we're doing it over time. That seems to be the most consistent for what you're doing down the track, down the drag strip. So we're not doing it gear dependent or anything like that. It's all time based.
Andre
Host
01:01:47
And CO2 boost control.
Conn
Guest
01:01:49
No, we've developed a system in the motor car keys that we've done and we're doing a lot of our boost control through the drive by wire.
Andre
Host
01:01:57
Okay, interesting. Talk to us more about how that's working, then Very good.
Conn
Guest
01:02:01
It's working very good. So we've obviously got a closed loop system developed in our package which enables us to run the boost where we want it, and it also enables us to keep the turn-ass speed where we want it as well.
Andre
Host
01:02:13
Right, so instead of a hot side boost control, you're using a drive by wire throttle on the cold side plumbing. Is that what I'm picking up here? Correct? Any hot side boost control also, Is it run or wastegate at all or no?
Conn
Guest
01:02:25
Some do some don't Any sub location. Yeah, actually, mostly applications at the moment still run or wastegate. So we've got some other things we're doing there as well, but our main boost control is through the drive by wire.
Andre
Host
01:02:36
Right. What would you say is the advantage over a conventional hot side boost control?
Conn
Guest
01:02:42
The advantages over a hot side boost control. Well, to be honest, we haven't run a generic hot side boost control or something like this before. Usually at this level you run CO2 and I just find our control with this over the CO2 is much better. We've got this dialing pretty well. We spend a fair bit of time on the control system to make sure that it's where it needs to be for what we're trying to do, and it pretty much hits our target when we want it.
Andre
Host
01:03:05
I mean, I guess that kind of comes back to what I was saying before. With these bigger turbos in the inertia they don't tend to change boost in a split second. But the way you're controlling it, getting off the boost pressure from the cold side, as you mentioned, you're actually maintaining that turbo speed. So if you need more boost and you shut that drive by wire throttle quickly, it's just going to jump straight to your boost target, isn't it?
Conn
Guest
01:03:27
Pretty much, but then it's a lot in your. You've got to spend a lot of time on the control system to make sure then it chases what you want without overshooting and carrying on as well. So it's a complex system but it works pretty well and I think we've got the best computer to do it. As for who we've been working with who write our packages for us we work pretty close in what we do and it's a good system we've developed together.
Andre
Host
01:03:53
Yeah, sure, in terms of the boost pressure, from the time you're on the two step limiter or launch control running through the traps at the end of the track, what sort of the boosts start to finish? You already talked about the finish, but what are you at at the start of the run and how quickly can you ramp that up?
Conn
Guest
01:04:10
Depending on the car, depending on track. You could start at lowest 15 pounds Depends on the whole setup. To be honest, every car's going to be different. I've never found two cars to be exactly the same. You could have two identical setups and they both want something different. You would never have them both the same.
Andre
Host
01:04:26
Another element with the launch, because this is really so critical to getting a good ETM. Mile an hour is getting the car to 60 foot really, really well, and this comes down to matching the power delivery to the grip that the track has. We already talked about the fact that that's sort of a constantly changing target as well. With the controls that you've got available, I'm guessing here you've got the ability to control the boost pressure on the start line as well as the launch RPM. What's the balance between changing one or the other or both of those together? What do you go to first it?
Conn
Guest
01:05:00
really depends on the turbo setup. Depending on the size of the turbo is where you will sort of try to pick your RPM, because obviously a smaller turbo you can take off, the less RPM which will shock the tire less. What we're doing a lot of our stuff is predominantly IRS based. We don't have that ability to separate the suspension like a live axle and hit it too hard, so we have to obviously finesse that side of it. The RPM would depend on the turbo. The larger the turbo, the higher the RPM you're going to need to go, because you don't want the car to fall into a hole either. If it falls into a hole, then you won't be able to make the boost that you want to make. So it's a balance between both, depending on the car, the setup and the track.
Andre
Host
01:05:41
Alright, we're going to get into the electronics side of thing and this sort of feeds into the next topic I want to talk about, which is the four wheel drive system with the R32 GTR, because this is quite unique in that the car is predominantly a four wheel drive and you've got a hydraulic centre differential that you can essentially lock up or open to transfer drive to the front wheels. And I think when I got into drag racing years and years ago, I kind of naively thought that four wheel drive was a big advantage. I mean, the reality is obviously the fastest drag cars in the world are all rear wheel drive. These GTRs are launching with the front wheels in the air anyway. So I'm guessing there's not a lot of benefit from the front wheel drive element, at least initially. For a start, how much of a benefit is that four wheel drive system in your opinion?
Conn
Guest
01:06:27
Believe it or not, the car will not take off if the four wheel drive isn't on. It's on. The front wheels are in the air. The front wheels are doing nothing, but the car needs it. On the whole power delivery changes as well, the whole characteristics of the car change. We have tried at some point when we had an issue with the front diff to go let's put in rear wheel drive and we had to pull out so much power and the car still wouldn't take off the same way. Wow, interesting, the whole characteristics change of the car as soon as you turn that front wheel drive off.
Andre
Host
01:06:57
Okay, in terms of how much torque you can transfer to the front wheels. Again, with that centre differential set up, you could vary that as the car goes down the track. Is this something you're doing and is the benefit to that?
Conn
Guest
01:07:10
Look, it is something we're doing and it's something that you have to do. To be honest, you've got to apply up to about 50% throttle. So if you lock a transfer case you'll get a 50-50 split front of rear. How much you bleed it off, how quick you bleed it off, depends on the track and the characteristics of the car. If you've got too much four wheel drive as well, you can have the car pulling from the front, which makes it a lot harder for the driver as well. But then it's a fine line between how much can you pull out before it actually breaks out in the wheel spin or where can you pull it out. So you're sort of chasing that a bit, depending on your track as well.
Andre
Host
01:07:43
Yeah, okay, with that four wheel drive split, is that something that you've sort of developed to a point where it's fit and forget and you don't touch it and you're using those other power delivery management controls that we've talked about to dial the car into the track? Or is that another element that you're actually changing, depending on the track and the day you always revisit it at some point.
Conn
Guest
01:08:04
You're always going to revisit it. It's what might be working for you. Like I said, at 680 mark doesn't necessarily work at 660. You need to make a change and then what works at 660 doesn't work at 640s. You have to constantly change that around a bit to get that where you're at. You don't want to upset the balance of the car too much when you do it, but at the same time it is something that does need to be revisited every now and then as well.
Andre
Host
01:08:27
Let's move into the electronics. You've already mentioned MoTeC and the fact you're running a custom firmware package. Can you kind of give us a quick overview of what that actually means, the custom firmware?
Conn
Guest
01:08:39
These days your M1 based ECUs. They've got their fixed packages that they come in. So you've got your GPR, your GPRP, your GPR drag, and the control systems in that are limited to what MoTeC have allowed you to do. That's not what the ECU is capable of, it's what MoTeC has allowed you to do. Pretty much. You might want a different access on one control table versus another or vice versa, something like that.
01:09:05
We have been developing a fair few packages over the last four or five years. Pretty much all our cars are running on our own packages. So we've got the ProMod on our own package, which is a that's a ProMod package. Then we've got the GDRs with Pete's and June there on a ProGDR package, a ProDrag GDR package. And then we've got Glenn's GOAT32, on the GPRP Pro Street, so it's like a Pro Street paddle shift package. And then we've got all our other ones on our Pro Street package, which pretty much everything from Junus filtered down into all the other cars.
01:09:43
And then we've developed stuff on other cars which has been going up into Junus as well. So we've got some done for the EVOs as well an EVO 8-1 and the EVO 10-1, which we're currently testing. The EVO 10-1 is pretty much the last one we're up to at the moment, and a lot of them we sort of have a marketer too much, because I'm sort of of the belief we want to get the packages in the cars running, tested, proven and then sell them. For us it's not about developing something to go, hey, let's just sell it, and you know when I fast, if this wasn't working, it doesn't work, or anything like that. We want to make sure everything's right before we go, hey, this is available if you want to buy it, sort of thing. Yep.
Andre
Host
01:10:20
Yep, that makes sense.
Conn
Guest
01:10:21
So we're developing it for our cars and there might be control systems in there which other people don't want to use or they're not interested in. They don't want to use all that stuff, but it's there ready to use if someone does.
Andre
Host
01:10:33
Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of personal preference that comes into how you want to set up the electronics for an application like this. It's obviously a very specific application and everyone's got a different view on how to do things. The benefit of the way that M1 system works is if you want to write your own firmware, I mean you can basically have that ECU do just about whatever you want. And I'm guessing, as far as I'm aware at least, the Drive by Wire Boost control is not a function that's natively available in any of the production firmware. So you've had that added in plus the built in control for that centre differential. That doesn't exist in a production firmware package.
Conn
Guest
01:11:11
Yes, correct. So a lot of that stuff is all written in, and sometimes what works in your head doesn't work at the track. So in June, for example, in the Pro-Mod, and then we've got George's VL as well. We've left those as build packages with development licenses so we can constantly tweak them while we're at the track if we need to, and we're not limited to what the package has to offer, sort of thing. So it's pretty much whatever you can think of. You think you want to do something a certain way, then you try it and it really comes down to how good your imagination is.
Andre
Host
01:11:43
Yeah, definitely Alright in terms of what you're monitoring on the engine, you did mention, I think, egt. The other option there is individual cylinder, lambda. A lot of people do use that, but more complexity in adding that, anything like that going on. Are you monitoring coolant system pressure, crankcase pressure, anything else to sort of keep an eye on when you're looking at data analysis?
Conn
Guest
01:12:07
We've obviously got sensors pretty much everywhere you can think of. We love sensors. The more we can put on the car, the better, the more data. You know it's not you won't use them all the time, but when you do have an issue you've got the answers there, and that's what it's about. It helps you fast track something when you do have an issue somewhere or when you're trying to find out something. No individual lambdas we run the one lambder in the dump pipe and then we've obviously got the individual EGTs as well.
Andre
Host
01:12:33
Alright. So those individual EGTs, I kind of find them, or explain them as being useful for two elements. One is we can do a degree of individual cylinder fuel trimming to equalise the EGT. Then we can also kind of monitor the overall EGT and make sure that we're within sort of safe limits. So the question there comes two parts With that engine how much individual cylinder trimming are you finding is required to get those EGTs within approximately the same values?
Conn
Guest
01:13:06
Look, I think anything you might have 5-8%, sometimes a little bit more. You certainly should have needs to be adding 20% of fuel on one cylinder. If you do, you got an issue somewhere. But it depends on the injectors as well. So every cars a bit different, injectors also be different. Whether they flow match with a not, and then you also got the air flow through your manifold which affects that as well. So you want to sort of try keeping more. We get it, we get. The agit is going down the track, probably within 20 degrees. So we get that. We get that pretty close.
Andre
Host
01:13:37
Just for clarity there we're talking Fahrenheit or C Celsus. Yeah, okay, cool. Obviously a lot of our American market will be working in Fahrenheit, so it's just important to get that clarity. 20 degrees, I think, is probably a reasonably tight region. Obviously there's no need to necessarily sort of chase your tail trying to get these absolutely perfect. And just as sort of a little caveat to that as well, we do have. We had one of our test engines that had individual cylinder EGT as well as individual cylinder lambda, and it's quite interesting to note that when the EGTs are equalised it doesn't always actually result in perfectly equal air fuel ratios. So there's a few elements going on there. But I mean, if you've got EGT, obviously that's what you're going to rely on In terms of safe limits on methanol fuel. Could you give us some guidance into what you consider to be sort of the maximum EGT you're happy to see?
Conn
Guest
01:14:31
Look for us. We'll see up to about 700 C, 700, 720. We sort of try to keep it under around there, sometimes in the back end of the track, depending on how much time you're using. Whatever else, you might creep up a little bit, but we've never lost a motor with them going up to those sort of temperatures. So we try to keep it again on the safe side of things to make sure that we don't have an issue there. It's hard enough as it is, let alone when you're trying to lean on it unnecessarily somewhere else. You know what I mean.
Andre
Host
01:14:58
The flip side of this is, if we compare those numbers to pump gas, that would be incredibly cold for a pump gas turbocharged engine, wouldn't it? Yeah, correct what would be more typical in a drag application if you were on pump gas?
Conn
Guest
01:15:10
On a pump gas. I have seen up to 1100 C, which is pretty hot. We won't see that often when we have lenton cars. Before I've seen 1070, 1080. Usually they'll be around the 900, though, but the highest I've seen is 1080, and we didn't hurt anything at that. That was actually a PB pass and a record pass. I've done this as well.
Andre
Host
01:15:34
That's sort of also getting into the realm of watching the sort of reliability of the turbo inside of the turbo as well. Depending on the actual specifics of the turbo, Around that 1,050, maybe 1100 C, that's kind of about where a lot of turbos will start falling apart, right.
Conn
Guest
01:15:50
Yeah, yeah. So we definitely didn't like seeing those numbers. But sometimes when you're out the track and the customers are pushed to get a record or you're so close to something, sometimes you have to lean on them a bit more and do what you have to do to get it. So in this case we did. But, like I said, I've only seen that a head full of times, those sort of numbers. Generally, like I said, it's around that 900 mark. It will take a little bit.
Andre
Host
01:16:13
In terms of other differences between, let's say, just keep it to methanol and pump fuel. Again, if we're running on pump fuel, generally we find that if we're on the dyno it's going to make maximum power. When we're sort of as we lean it out from a rich starting point, we sort of see more and more power. Obviously, at a point we're going to get our EGTs are too high or go too lean, it'll start falling over as well. But there is that very distinct tie in between our lambda target and the power the engine's producing. Methanol I find not quite so sensitive to that and it tends to run quite happily much richer without really losing a lot of power, as long as you can. Actually, you've got an ignition system that can light it off reliably. So on that note, what's your main guide when you're tuning? Are you looking more at your maximum EGT or are you using lambda?
Conn
Guest
01:17:01
I'll use both. I found the lambda sensors on methanol at those really high mixtures as well. They aren't all that reliable. Obviously. You start reading pretty rich, so it's hidden miss with them. Sometimes your lambda you look at your lambda and you go, okay, your lambda sort of is 65 or 68 or whatever it is and your EGTs are reflecting that. And then other times you see that those mixtures and your EGTs aren't reflecting that. So it's like, okay, sometimes you go I'm going to look at the lambda, I'm going off EGTs and other times you reference off both. You reference off both and got to make a bit of a calculated decision on what you're seeing and how the car's behaving as well.
Andre
Host
01:17:38
I think, just coming back to earlier conversation about running the car on the dyno versus running it at the track, that's another thing that I see. I never went into the sixes, but what you'd see on a short pull on the dyno through one gear, that's loading the engine up differently than running the car the whole way down the strip, which might be under a high load for eight or nine seconds, and the ultimate EGT that you see at the end of the track can be quite different to what you see on the dyno. Is that something you see as well?
Conn
Guest
01:18:05
Yeah, of course. So the EGTs you see on the track are definitely going to be hotter than what you see on the dyno. On a full pass at least, anyway, on the dyno you might do a pull. We don't ramp them up too aggressively. I try to keep some load on them to get my tune where it needs to be. The horsepower figure for me means nothing, it's just a tune into it. We look at it to get the tune where we want it. Once the tune's where we want it, it makes what it makes. We'll do the rest of the track sort of thing. But nine out of ten times we get to the track and our fuel mixtures are pretty close to where they need to be. But like I said, as you go down the track, the longer you're in it, obviously your EGTs are going to get higher as well. So the last 300 feet on the track is where your EGTs already start pouring a bit.
Andre
Host
01:18:45
Yep, yep, that's where you're going to start hurting the engine. Ultimately, correct, alright. What about in terms of ignition timing on methanol fuel? Is knock a consideration? Obviously, on pump gas, it's something we need to be very, very mindful of, making sure that the engine isn't running into knock, but the properties of methanol fuel are very different. How do you approach that side of things? Can you tune to MBT or are you purposely being conservative?
Conn
Guest
01:19:13
You need to be conservative. You can't always tune to MBT. Obviously we look a lot at the motor itself when it comes apart to see what's going on on that side of it. Sometimes you might be able to add that one or two degrees more and the car will make a shitload of horsepower extra as well. So it does like it, but does the internals like it with that extra cylinder pressure? That's another story. You know what I mean. So you're always trying to find that balance between what the motor wants, what it can actually take to make the power reliably as well.
Andre
Host
01:19:43
Yeah, that makes sense.
01:19:44
For those who maybe haven't heard that term, mbt as well, just quickly explain that it stands for maximum brake torque timing or minimum timing for best torque, depending who you talk to.
01:19:55
And basically, if we could plot a relationship between our ignition timing and our engine torque under one operating condition as we start from very retarded timing and in advance it, we see the torque increase quite dramatically. Then, once we get to the sweet spot where the engine is making maximum torque, that starts to plateau. Obviously it peaks eventually and then if we continue to advance the timing beyond that point, we'll start to see that torque drop away again. So I mean, if we want to get the maximum torque the engine can make, mbt timing is where we want it, but obviously that comes with additional cylinder pressure, as you mentioned. That can have a detrimental effect in terms of the life expectancy of the engine components. Now, on the same note, we can also use torque manipulation via our boost control and via our ignition timing to actually limit the peak cylinder pressure through the peak torque area, and sometimes we're going to end up running a drag car past peak torque. So is that something you're doing as well, or is it not really a consideration with the strength of the engine components.
Conn
Guest
01:20:58
You're still doing it on some cars. On John, I'm not going to really say you're limiting it because of the engine side of things. You're limiting it more on the traction side. But there are some motors where the thing's trying to make that much power down low and in the mid-range that you don't want to make it a power necessarily. So you will end up manipulating your boost curve to reflect something that's actually going to make the motor more happier and a much more progressive linear power curve which helps keep them alive. I found them more responsive to set up or more. You want to do that as well.
Andre
Host
01:21:32
I think it's good you raised this because, again, people probably think that it's a case of, well, let's give it all the timing that the engine wants and make as much power as the engine can produce. But the reality is a little bit more complex than that, right?
Conn
Guest
01:21:45
Yes. So there might be some cases where I know I could put more time in there. But in the E85, people can get caught out with it as well, where you start adding time and things make you more and more horsepower. It doesn't need to make the motor lighter. People get caught up in the numbers.
01:22:01
I get cars where, say, for example, at 5,000 RPM a customer wants 25, 30 pounds of boost. I'm looking at going what do you want? 30 pounds of boost at 5,000 RPM for a thing driven at 8,000? So I try to limit that bottom end torque through boost and timing to make that motor live. Because obviously with the RBs we know there's still a lot of us for happy bearing issues if you get a bit too happy with them as well. So you want to keep that side of it more conservative and then obviously bring that ramp that into, obviously depending on where your maximum power output is as well, depending on what the car revs to. So it's all relative to what it revs to. I mean, if you're talking 5,000 RPM, you're only revving at the 7, and if a story you need some power. There it's relative.
Andre
Host
01:22:46
OK, in terms of reliability of the engine. We've already talked about the fact that the Conrods are a consumable item, but what's the life expectancy of the rest of the components? In terms of the rotating assembly, maybe valve train, how often is it coming apart? How many passes? And then, when it does, what components are being replaced?
Conn
Guest
01:23:06
At this stage the heads are probably the most thing that are given a struggle with cracking and that sort of thing, cracking and just struggling to cope with what we're trying to put them through. Then the rods after that, your crank we haven't really had any issues with, and pretty much the pistons no issues. We've never lost the piston over something stupid. So it's pretty much. If there's ever been a failure from a rod, a rod just, and maybe we've pushed it too long and haven't changed them when we needed to.
01:23:33
When we first got into the alloy rods with June, that was sort of our first bit delving into that whole alloy rod sense. That was a bit of a learning curve for us as well. I guess slowly we've just been going okay, let's check out the 10 passes, let's check out the 15, and slowly we'll run it out a little bit more and assess the internals as well when they come apart to see how they're coping, and then you sort of get an indication. But then if you start having other issues in the meantime, then they obviously take life out of the rods as well.
Andre
Host
01:24:01
Yeah, definitely Alright. One element I should have talked about when we were going over the electronics is with the MoTeC ECU, like most ECUs who've got the ability to have a closed loop fuel control where the ECU is correcting the fueling. If you're not quite on your lambda target I know some tuners absolutely love this and run on every car. Other tuners don't like it in case maybe there's a sensor fold or something like that, is that something that you're utilising?
Conn
Guest
01:24:28
We weren't utilising it. We were not utilising it up until recently on the big power stuff. Nowadays you might use it a little bit, but I have it there more as a failsafe. So I don't want it to trim fuel out personally. I'd rather trim the fuel out myself and if it needs a little bit of extra fuel it's got the ability to add it there if it does need it. At least it gives you a little bit of a safety buffer. But again, I try. I don't rely on it.
Andre
Host
01:24:56
Yeah, the benefit here I've sort of mentioned earlier. This isn't sort of a bandaid that lets you do a body job of tuning. It's there to pick up the pieces if things aren't quite right. But the nice element is with the MoTeC like a lot of closed lip systems is you can also limit the amount of control it has. So maybe if it's a street car, for example, you might want to allow a plus or minus 10% or 15% down in the idling cruise areas. But when it's up on full load you could maybe pull that down to plus or minus 3% or 5% so that it's much tighter control. So at the end of the day it shouldn't be doing that much trimming realistically if you've done your job properly in the first place, right, yeah, correct.
Conn
Guest
01:25:35
So my class car we had out, for example, last time we were out there was at one point maybe one or two of the passes there might have been 1%. It was adding somewhere. So you just go and add that into your fuel, trim into your fuel itself and then you'll pretty much see your fuel trim at zero the whole way. And if it's a tug of the richard, it's a tug of the richard. We'll leave that up to us to make the corp rather than try to rely on the electronics.
Andre
Host
01:25:58
The other element with the electronics is traction control, and obviously there's a variety of ways that this can be done. Are you using any form of traction control on the car? No, not, with what?
Conn
Guest
01:26:08
we're doing because we're playing with a radio that doesn't like to turn at all. So the second is wheels being out, guys are getting off it anyway. You can set up, obviously, a traction curve above that once you've got the data, just to give you a bit of a failsafe. But in saying that, we've never sort of relied too much on that as well, an anti-left sort of thing that you might try to chase rather than traction control.
Andre
Host
01:26:30
Yeah, and the other problem that a lot of people I talk to with these very high powered engines is the traction control on paper is a great idea, but once you start introducing ignition cuts to these very highly tuned engines, that in itself can actually be a reliability problem for the engine, right.
Conn
Guest
01:26:46
Yes, it does definitely put a lot more load on the motor. The rods you'll find start copying that a lot more. So we try to sort of stay away from ignition cuts and that sort of thing on something like that.
Andre
Host
01:26:57
Yep, okay, Also intercooling. I'm not actually sure if you're running an intercooler on this car.
Conn
Guest
01:27:03
Yes, we're running a water tour.
Andre
Host
01:27:04
Okay, I'm interested in your experience on this front because methanol in itself has got a great cooling property. It's latent heat of evaporation tends to draw a lot of heat out of the combustion charge as it goes through a phase change from liquid to vapour. So you see a lot of boosted methanol engines without an intercooler. Have you tried with and without? And basically, why did you decide the intercooler's right for this application?
Conn
Guest
01:27:31
We have tried with and without cold or air charge. You'll make more horsepower, plain and simple. That's the way we sort of look at it. Anyway, we did find that you needed to use a lot more boost to make the same horsepower than what you're doing with an intercooler versus without. You can get your intake temps obviously pretty cool with the water to air, depending on the core setup and how much ice you put in the speed of the water, that sort of thing, the water pump. So you can play around with that to sort of get that where you want it to an extent. But we definitely have noticed a big difference with no cooler and without, with the cooler and without. Sorry, okay yep.
Andre
Host
01:28:04
Could you put a number around it in terms of how much horsepower the intercooler's worth Look?
Conn
Guest
01:28:09
it's hard to put a number on it, but what I can say is for us the best reference is we went 63 at 224 with nitrous. At the moment we've done a 65 at 222 without nitrous. So we're the same servo setup just with a cooler and with a water to air cooler and without the water to air cooler. So there is been a fair horsepower gain there and again it's just about now actually having the chassis to utilize that horsepower, because we're sort of at the crossroads now. We're struggling to be able to use what we have, what we've got.
Andre
Host
01:28:45
Yeah, that sort of segues nicely into where do you see this ending? 63, on one hand, is dangerously close to a five, but also for those who are operating at that level, those 3 tenths of a second, that's a lifetime to get out of the car. What do you think, realistically, you can get this down to?
Conn
Guest
01:29:04
Honestly, there's no limit. The limit is how far each person wants to push. That's one thing we've learned, I guess, over the years. You can't really put a limit on what we're doing, because technology is evolving, there's new stuff coming out, you're learning as you go on. So no one's done what we're doing. So you're constantly evolving and trying to better yourself. Is there a possibility that can run five? Yeah, I think so. Is it going to be hard to get there? Hell yeah, it's definitely not going to be easy. I don't think we'll do it in the chassis that we've got, but there are a few other cars coming out which I think are going to be a fair few steps forward on what we're doing at the moment.
Andre
Host
01:29:44
Sure, in terms of that, how useful or helpful is it with advancing the GTR drag scene to have the competition? I mean in Sydney the CRD and the Toks have been sort of trading blows. Obviously you always want to have the record, but would you be trying as hard if there weren't other tuners basically chasing you down?
Conn
Guest
01:30:06
Definitely not. A lot of. It is the competition that we're doing, that we've got between each other. If we didn't have this competition, there's no chance we would have progressed as far as we've progressed. The thing is, when you've got the record and the song goes a bit quicker than you're trying to chase them down, the new parts versus us. So the tracks is good. We enjoy the tracks. Hopefully they come out and actually beat us in the 30s so we can push a bit harder and try to better it again. So we're always looking to keep evolving and keep trying to get faster. But you need that competition to give you that extra motivation and bragging right sort of thing.
Andre
Host
01:30:42
Definitely yeah, and I think it's just good for the spectators as well. You know everyone wants to see close competition. Let's move on and talk a little bit about Quentin Racing developments in general. We haven't really sort of dived into the business, so give us the 30,000 foot view. Where are you? What's the size of the business, size of the facility and number of staff?
Conn
Guest
01:31:01
So we're in Smithfield at the moment, so not in Croydon anymore. Jim was back in Croydon up until, I think, 98, then they moved to Silverwater, then from Silverwater they moved to Rydomy and then in 2017, me and Oma took over and then we moved to Smithfield. I think that was 2019, a couple years later. We're on about 1600 square metres. The floor space is about 1600. There's nine guys on the floor plus myself and Oma. You're total. Then you've got office staff, which is Andre, and then obviously our council lady. So in total there's about 13,000 or 18,000 of us here.
Andre
Host
01:31:38
OK, so it's a big operation. What's the sort of range of services that you offer? Is it just absolutely anything? Performance based, pretty much.
Conn
Guest
01:31:48
It comes and goes in waves. So we do, obviously, a lot of GDRs, a lot of Skylines. We also play with EVOs. We play with V8 stuff as well. So we've got a bit of everything, to be honest, and it comes and goes in waves. You might not see an R35 for a month and then all of a sudden, like I come back from the track the other day we almost a couple weeks ago I get back from the track and there's another 535 here. It's like, okay, what just happened? It's everything comes and goes in waves. So we do, we don't sort of um, we don't limit ourselves to one make or a model. We do a bit of everything. So we got either 10, which we're playing around with now. Just wait for a transmission for it to get that out and go have some fun with that.
Andre
Host
01:32:32
Okay, interesting in terms of choosing A model or a make to support. What's the process that if you go through? When you're looking at you know a new, a new car comes out. How do you sort of rate initially what you think is going to be popular and what's worth supporting and learning that new platform?
Conn
Guest
01:32:51
I think a lot of it comes down to what type of vehicle it is and what the vehicle has off and what people like we purchased an essence in to do some development work on that.
Andre
Host
01:33:00
This is the new 400c.
Conn
Guest
01:33:02
Yes, yes. So we've purchased that now that I don't feel that's really taken off yet because it hasn't been that many there's actually not that many out yet, so a lot of people are struggling to still get their hands on them. But I think that's a decent platform. You know, I've been a three-liter twin-turbo V6, so it's got the engine three-wheel drive, which people like I don't feel like there's been a rear-wheel drive Turbo car since the 200s x on the JDM side of things.
Andre
Host
01:33:27
Yeah, there's sort of diet and natural death almost.
Conn
Guest
01:33:29
Yes, so it's for me. I saw that as an opportunity going on. This can be the next sort of 200 sex or anything to hit the scene so, and I think it will be to an extent in the future, but I think it will take a bit to sort of get there as well.
Andre
Host
01:33:42
Okay, in terms of your customer base. Yeah, what's the the main element? Obviously, today we've talked predominantly about drag racing, but what's the main sort of interest that your custom base have? Is it drag racing, Is it roll racing, is it circuit racing or is it predominantly street cars?
Conn
Guest
01:34:01
We do a bit of everything, to be honest, other than drift. We don't do too much in the drift side of things. Every now and then you'll get one come in, but not all that much there. But we've got the circuit cars that we work with is, I think, four or five of them here at the moment which we support build. Then you've got, obviously, your drag side of things and then you've got your street side of things.
01:34:20
These days A street side of things borderline drag, the roll racing side, is starting to pick up. But in saying that, I try to sort of steer the guys into our customers at least into picking which One they want to do, because you get a lot of guys that want to go to the drag strip on Wednesday and then go to the go to roll racing on Friday. They're two different things in terms of how the cars are set up. So if they're gonna focus on roll racing, I prefer they just focus on roll racing rather than try to jump between the two Like we went there. We've got 32, one meeting and the roll racing at the car is all over the place. So it needs some serious changes to make it work.
Andre
Host
01:35:01
Is that? Is that down to the, the fact that the roll racing, that you're not dealing with, a prepped surface with VHT down?
Conn
Guest
01:35:08
You're not dealing with a prepped surface and Also the power delivery is very different. On the drag strip you're taking off from a standing, start the cars, but acceleration straightway, whereas at the roll racing you're cruising at a certain speed and then you'll take off from there. So you've got this sudden rush of power which can't unsettle the car as well.
Andre
Host
01:35:27
Alright, let's move on towards wrapping this thing up. Con, I don't want to take up too much of your time. We've got the same three questions we finish up with all of our guests. The first of those what's next in the future for you and CRD? Maybe look into your crystal ball and tell us what it looks like in five or ten years time well, guys, we're just looking at growing and expanding and, I guess, playing with more platforms as well.
Conn
Guest
01:35:52
On the racing side of things, we just want to keep roll. That's our main focus. So we've got a big facility here which we've sort of invested heavily into, and we'd like to utilize it to its full potential.
Andre
Host
01:36:05
Yeah, absolutely. Is there any advice you'd give to a younger version of yourself, or maybe one of our listeners, to help get to where you've Got to in your career faster or maybe potentially avoid some pitfalls that you've come across along the way?
Conn
Guest
01:36:20
Honestly, just pay attention, listen to what seniors have to say and Any opportunity you can get to learn, take it. It's not all about money. These days there seems to be how can I put it Pre-conception that you know someone wants to learn. They need to get paid to learn. Then I've done so much in my own time to, I guess, put myself where I am and to learn from others, and I Think a lot of that has gone away these days. So I think if really just supply yourself and concentrate and learn and take everything in, you can off everyone.
Andre
Host
01:36:55
I think it sounds like you're very fortunate with the early part of your career, being able to sit alongside Jim, the old owner, and and learn from his experience in tuning. That's sort of a what has set you up for for what you're doing now.
Conn
Guest
01:37:11
Yes, yes, I have, but a lot of it is how can I put it? How? I think a lot of it is how you apply yourself as well and learn. I mean, I remember being 18 years old and sitting at the shop till 2, 3 in the morning, 4 in the morning, you know, trying to help get cars ready. Now I didn't need to be there, but I wanted to be there to learn, I wanted to be a part of it. I think that mentality is changed over the years between a lot of people, between the generations. So Do. There's a lot of opportunities for people to put themselves in that position, but I think it's just gonna embrace it and want to learn. I keep saying to in this industry, I think, to be successful, you need common sense and commitment, passion. If you've got the commitment and passion, then and you've got From the sense, you can make it work.
Andre
Host
01:37:52
Yeah, I think that's really solid advice. I think the passion is so important. I don't think you're going to Make it as well in this industry if you are just treating it as a job because it's gonna make you money. I think there's probably not too many people in the tuning industry that have got there Without that that passion element. But you know, I mean I think it's just gonna make Everything so so much easier. The other element there you sort of touched on is like learning from others.
01:38:21
I think I probably was guilty of this in my earlier days of tuning. You sort of get to a point I think it's a bit of the Dunning Kruger effect coming in. You kind of start knowing nothing, build up a little bit of experience and all of a sudden you think you're, you know everything there is to know and I think then the further you go through your career and the more you learn, the more experience you gain. You start suddenly start questioning just about everything and realize that there's so much that you didn't even know that you don't know. So always keep an open mind, learning from others. If you can get a mentor, absolutely great. Last question for today con, if people want to follow and see what you're up to. Reach out to CRD, how are they best to do so. What are your, what are your sort of social media websites, etc.
Conn
Guest
01:39:02
Our website's currently under production. We actually got to get a get a move on on that to get that sorted. These days, it's mainly social media. Social media is the biggest Facebook Instagram. Pretty much all the stuff we do is on there. Obviously, you can email us the main parts of contact though our social media these days. So a lot of what we do is on there, but there's also a lot of what we don't. A lot of what we do also isn't on there because we just get so caught up in what we're doing every day that it's hard to sort of To keep track and try put everything online these days as well.
Andre
Host
01:39:34
So yeah, definitely. They're keeping up with the social media as a full-time job in and of itself.
Conn
Guest
01:39:39
It is unfortunate. So it's at the point where you almost need to put someone on full-time just to do your social media, because there's so much. Yeah, I mean, we had Larry Chen throttle and you know, suck a motor son come past and a couple other people from overseas as well, and they've just walked in the shop and they go. Man, we've got so much content here, now why don't you show it? We get too caught up in working and being. You know something you forget about as well.
Andre
Host
01:40:03
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it always takes twice as long to do a particular job if you're also trying to create content for social media. So, yeah, it is definitely a balancing act. Well, as usual, we'll put links to those accounts in the show notes as well. Make it easy for people to find. Look Con really appreciate your time. It's been great getting some insight into John 2 and your background, learning how to tune. Hopefully it's going to be useful for others who are maybe thinking of going down a similar path. And obviously we don't get to learn about the inner workings of a world record holding drag car too often. So we do appreciate you sharing all of the inner workings with us and obviously look forward to seeing if you can and sometime crack it into the five seconds zone. That would be absolutely amazing.
Conn
Guest
01:40:51
We'd love that mate. Thank you for having me on, and I appreciate it really.
Andre
Host
01:40:56
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01:42:06
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