More Meat on the HPA Bone?

Hi, first time poster etc.

Sorry if this has been discussed, and sorry if I'm stepping on toes... I've paid for and watched the PDM Install module, and I have to say, it's a bit underwhelming. So many details are glossed over, or buried under very fluently delivered industry speak. For a noob starting out, who has no idea what a pull-up is, or how many inputs I need to dedicate to a wiper circuit before I run out of real estate, I am left with many more questions than answers. I've seen mention on these forums of similar disappointment at the glossing over of certain points that would have been helpful if given more to chew on. This seems a common thing among HPA content...the discussion on Star Point Grounding never actually tells us how to create a star point, or how one might appear when complete. Plenty on the what and why...not much how or when.

I think I've annoyed numerous dozens of well-versed facebook users with my noob questions over the past few years, but it seems practical and intensive motor vehicle power control content is grossly inadequate. I could (and have) build a complete marine aquarium in my garage with the amount of information available online, but do you think I can find how to create a body harness for a 70s resto-mod??

HPA members would, in my view, benefit greatly by having an intensive, in depth, why and why not series dedicated to the design and building of a body harness for a classic car, from detailed documentation prep, to first start up. A big ask, I know, but it would save many hours searching for tidbits of nothing at all.

Cheers.

I don't think you're going to upset anyone, your point that some people are COMPLETE beginners who get confused by the requirements of some circuits, circuit design, etc, can so easily be overlooked.

Even when one may think the subject has been covered, even in depth, sometimes another party has a different slant in their thinking, their approach, their understanding. Different subjects, but I've seen friends on the verge of fist-fights because they didn't realise they were saying the same thing, just from different viewpoints - and those were a simple a>b vs b

Thanks for the understanding. I thought I'd be roasted straight off the bat.

Being a beginner at anything is always tough, but in this day and age, I can teach myself piano, while taking a 3 Star Michelin cooking course, and learning Mandarin. All on YouTube. I'm not lashing out at HPA per se. There really does just seem to be a grossly inadequate amount of info available on this topic, though, and most that try to offer assistance are often seasoned pros who already know exactly what they mean. Surely it could not take a lot of effort to video a body wiring project from go to whoa, taillights to headlights? HPA seem to be about the only channel that deals almost exclusively in programming and building power control systems, and something like this would be an awesome feather in the cap.

Don't know what happened, but around half the last post is missing?

Anyway, going back to it, some may not even know what a resistor or diode is, let alone why they may be used.

If some very kind person, with the time and experience to do it, could put together a summary of terms used, and their meanings and uses, it would help people like you a lot - and even some intermediate chaps like myself who are rather rusty.

The biggest issue I have is trying to remember what acronyms mean, which is worsened because some manufactures use different terms, and hence acronyms, for the same things.

I'd like to chip in my 3 cents... This is what I picked up trying to learn different subjects : trying to study English language, car tuning, engine building, automatic transmission rebuilding- until you physically start doing it yourself and practice no other thing is going to help you regardless how much information you're going to have to support you. I'm 100 percent sure that you have picked up the same thing from building your own aquarium... The bottom line is you have to develop yourself to some extent first in order to be able to receive information and the reason is you need to get understanding of what you're doing - watching video (even a very good one) ain't gonna solve all the questions you might have at very begging, in my opinion, because one video isn't going to be able to cover all cases in real life that might occur...

@georg, yes, absolutely. But in the absence of a workshop full of the correct tools, starting out and building up the experience is difficult. Taking the aquarium example again, I've never owned or kept a marine aquarium, but with the knowledge gained from plenty of research (not a huge ask, given the abundant info available), I was able to take my practical skills and build everything from scratch, using the right equipment, to a level that may considered vastly beyond what the average enthusiast might own.

The courses here are sold as "giving you the confidence to complete your own wiring harness install at home, with just a few tools", but fall way short of that mark. I'm a pretty clever guy when it comes to DIY, and I do have a home workshop full of tools, but despite my research efforts so far, I have absolutely no idea where to start, with any confidence.

Anyway, I am no doubt an old man shouting at clouds, and I'll just have to keep on scratching among the rock for nuggets and dust. The funny part is, all I want to do is figure out the most effective and complete way of powering the entire car (which PMU offers the right amount of IOs, for example), neatly presented, and with zero chance of fire, but I can't even figure out how to access my PD16 within the Nexus software! :facepalm:

Maybe it would be easier for HPA if you'll have listed all your questions here so they can see exactly where they fall short..?

I am trying not to be directly critical of anyone in particular. My OP was really just a beef about the lack of easily accessible info in the field of auto wiring, and virtually nothing that a beginner can muse over. I'd presented the idea of an expanded PDM install series, that cut more deeply, or presented more to chew on, than quickly delivered industry speak. The Haltech "Dave's Vlog" series is a good watch, but again, much of what is discussed assumes at least some experience in motor vehicle wiring.

Were I an expert in the field, with the background knowledge of how it is to be completely ignorant as I am now, I'd put together a series myself 😄

....which would require some YouTube research on videography, of course 😁

Oh, I totally understand what you are saying. But my point is that it would be helpful to get detailed explanation from your stand point of view what was missing and how you would like to see it, what exactly was difficult to understand and why. That type of feedback can probably make it easier for HPA to improve it. Otherwise there is still room for missing stuff out...

Good points there, Shota!

Adam,

Constructive feedback is always appreciated!

All items you are hoping for info on have additional coverage beyond the course, so I'm happy to say there are solutions for your wants available to you right now.

When something in a course feels incomplete or missing, I suggest checking the search icon near the top of the HPA website. Some detailed items are common to multiple subjects, so rather than copy/pasting all that info into multiple courses, bloating them for people who watch several courses and would see the same info over and over, recording the same thing repeatedly, that info is provided separately.

Since a pull up resistor relates to wiring, PDM, calibrating sensors for an ECU or a dash, etc. it's mentioned in many courses. It's also something best taught with examples.

I just searched the HPA site for "pull up resistor" and the first 2 results are a technical article, then a webinar specifically on that subject, so you get multiple formats delivering specific info on the topic, with examples to help clarify things.

https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-articles/simple-but-crucial-pull-up-resistors-explained/

https://www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/218-what-is-a-pull-up-resistor/

As I typed "star" into the search bar I got a blog post and a webinar:

https://www.hpacademy.com/blog/star-point-grounding-earth-groundearthing/

https://www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/230-star-point-earthing-explained/

A search for "wiring planning" comes up with lots of info on that subject as well, including multiple blog posts with text and video info.

A search for "wiper" comes up with additional info, but this is a good example where even after going through all the available info, you MIGHT still have an application specific question. If that happens, make a thread on the forum. Tell us what switch, module, motor, PDM you're using, what you know about them, and what you're stuck on. We love to help.

I hope the suggestion to use the search gets you most of the info you're after. A lot of thought and effort goes into those additional materials, and the decisions about what goes in the course, and what gets housed separately because detail on the subject can stand on its own and/or relates to multiple courses. If those materials on pull up resistors and star grounding don't have all you hoped for, then please update us here with specific detail of what wasn't understood or felt missing. As Shota mentioned, we welcome general feedback, but specifics help us take action to help you.

Another thing to keep in mind is many people dedicate a year to learning these skills then the process (plan, design, construct, and document full vehicle wiring). It's extremely common to feel overwhelmed or frustrated at times because progress seems slow and completion seems far away. I believe any big project is best broken down into tiny pieces to make them feel more manageable, and help you see small incremental progress.

For example, one suggested increment would be reading all the associated Haltech manuals before trying to use their software. After the manual is read and understood, then see if you can find PDM settings in their software. Some things will be obvious as you look at a user interface, but as a first timer, most things will not be clear. I always suggest starting by reading documentation rather than putting pressure on yourself as if you're going to open up software and instinctively know what to do, then getting frustrated when you don't have immediate success.

I find those that enjoy the process have made learning a new skill their top priority, and getting the work done second. This avoids a lot of frustration. We expect learning new skills to take time, while building a harness seems like something we can do in a few days.

Please keep us posted on your progress and have a great day.

Hi Mike, cheers for the response. I'll take all of that on board, and see how I go.

Cheers.

You're welcome and please keep us posted on your progress.

Hi all. Sorry to dig this up again... An example of a very basic question not covered by any online tutorial, and kind of indicative of my point. I've been advised by a few responders here and there to connect my device to my computer, and just have a play, to help figure out what is possible with the available I/Os. So, I have my PD16 presently connected to my PC via USB. I can see the green lit icon on the Nexus page, but I cannot for the life of me work out how to open a process "tree". I've had to reinstall latest firmware about twenty times, as it asks me to every time I reconnect or try to log in. I've tried reverting to previous build updates, as well as the latest (1.6, iirc), and all to no avail... Do you think I can find, in any platform anywhere, what it is I'm doing wrong?? Am I supposed to have a car battery beside me to power the unit up, and if so, how do I earth the thing?? This is an example of the vital info a noob like myself needs to know. It's basic. It's embarrassing. It's frustrating. I swear I am not a dullard, and I'm doing all I can to "do my research", but as I've said in my OP, there is a massive lack of readily available tuning info online. HPA or anywhere else.

Mike, thanks again, and I do fully realise some people spend many months or years becoming proficient in this field, and I do not expect to learn in one tutorial. But if I have no clue where to start, how do I even get started...? 🤷🏻‍♂️

If someone has a spare minute, I'd really appreciate you doing a search from the point of view of someone with no idea. Forget everything you know for a minute, and go looking for the absolute basic infant intelligence level information you can find. Just so I can be rest assured that I am an idiot, and have wasted all.of your time 😉

Unfortunately the PD16 is a bit of an oddball PDM compared to what the course was built around.

The USB cable on it is only for updating the firmware. All the control and strategy is done in an Elite/Nexus ecu or IC7 dash. The PD16 doesn't do much of anything without a controlling device powered up and telling it what to do. If you want to have a play with strategies, open an ecu file and under "Haltech CAN" add a PD16. You can then assign outputs and generic conditions/functions to a PDM output.

I honestly have found the available info on the PD16 from haltech pretty lacking in details like the very ones you're struggling with. Though that info is in the brochure/pdf thing its not spelled out very clearly.

Worked examples are great ways to go about explaining specific brands nuances and some simple how-to's. I have some videos similar on my Youtube channel and have been working on a series for the PMU-16 that I'll be releasing soon.

Hallelujah!! Thank you! Honestly, I have been asking and asking for advice, and constantly getting told "Yeah, just fire your unit up, and have a play...", and not one single iota of info or suggestion has mentioned this. AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT OF MY OP...there just is not enough PROPER info on HPA, or anywhere else, to help someone just starting out. So much is just glossed over and assumed as already known. Not even a mention of this on ANY of the Haltech content.

I'ma just sell this pos and work with something else. Like a PMU24. 16 outs and 4 ins are just not enough to run whole-of-vehicle, anyway... What a pathetic situation. Sorry, this has really blown my mind. Thank you for finally being the person to crack the riddle. Wow...I'm honestly...just, wow.

*I need to add, I don't have anything wired up yet. Firing up my Elite 1500 would require (I think) a full connection, but presently my Datto 1600 is a shell in the garage, and I am trying to learn what I need to be able to build the body harness (or more likely, give in and have someone do it for me). So I can't really just connect the PDM and open an ECU file, as such. Unless you know of a way to do this with just my PC...?

Thanks again.

yeah the PD16 has some odd design choices made to me.

PMU24 and any of the Ecumaster PDM's are great, hands down my favourite pdm's on the market right now. Only sorta catch there is that Haltech has a pretty restrictive CAN system when it comes to 3rd party. Download the Ecumaster software and look at the canx files for what the Haltech stream has in it just to make sure you have what you need. Things like RPM and Coolant temp are in there, but user defined outputs I don't believe are.

Not sure I understand what you're asking here: So I can't really just connect the PDM and open an ECU file, as such. Unless you know of a way to do this with just my PC...?

for the PD16 you open NSP, choose Elite 1500 when creating a project and then under "haltech CAN system" you enable a PD16. Then you can assign inputs and outputs to it. When it comes time to load it you load that file onto the ECU, which then tells the PD16 what to do. If you wanted to bench test functions with outputs you would need both the ECU and PD16 connected to power and ground and the USB to the Elite.

I also missed your question the first time, the ground connection on the PD16 is in the 34 pin connector, the ground isn't high current carrying and just serves the processor in the unit and the H bridge circuit.

*Not sure I understand what you're asking here: So I can't really just connect the PDM and open an ECU file, as such. Unless you know of a way to do this with just my PC...?*

I think I misunderstood your suggestion to begin with. I was trying to explain that I don't have a functioning vehicle, with any electrical system at all, and I was asking if in order to tinker with the PD16, would I be able to do so at my desktop, and not in situ in the vehicle? Which brought me around to the question of how to earth...as I can't exactly screw an earth cable to a desk leg, for example. But now I'm reading this as, this can be done with nothing connected at all, only opening the software, selecting the correct tabs, and playing from there...but any actual building or testing requires battery connection. Is that correct?

On the PMU24/Elite combo, I've had many assertions that this system works fine, as the ECU Master system has the correct CAN protocols to communicate fully with the Haltech. Should I take this now as incorrect or misleading?? Your comment about user defined outputs is worrying, as that is the whole point of using a PDM.

The long and the short of this entire saga, is to figure out and understand how many I/Os I require to wire a classic vehicle, with no special additions over factory, and using low current LED globes at all lighting points. I do plan a Vintage Air system, but I think this will need to be its own fuse/relay circuit, unless I have enough I/Os to group and control it (the Retropower boys recently devised a three resistor wire, so as to only require 1 input from their VA unit to PMU16, which in turn altered the fan speed relative to the variable current coming in. That is the kind of trickery I want to learn!! 😉).

I'm planning to spend today perusing your YouTube, and see what nuggets I can uncover 👍

Ah, you know about RetroPower, so you should also know about Project Binky - especially if you caught their last vid' - they've been getting into the electronics a bit lately, probably why they've had even longer breaks between their vid's than usual, it can be a steep learning curve, where just a single thing that's not quite understood can turn into a real head-scratcher until the Eureka moment when the light-bulb goes off - figuratively speaking.

I know OF Project Binky, but have not been following along... Could be something worth checking one day, no doubt.

But yeah, Retropower is easily my fave YT car channel. Been following since the Gordon Murray Escort, and it's only gotten exponentially better with every passing week. I'm a huge fan of their very straight forward attitude, without all the noise usually associated with Yank content...even Nat's constant rambling becomes endearing after enough episodes! 🤣

https://www.youtube.com/@BadObsessionMotorsport

If you like the RP format, I think you'll really like the guys of BOM, and the nitty-gritty of the designing, and thinking, behind their work - ESPECIALLY if you like Brackets!

"On the PMU24/Elite combo, I've had many assertions that this system works fine, as the ECU Master system has the correct CAN protocols to communicate fully with the Haltech. Should I take this now as incorrect or misleading?? Your comment about user defined outputs is worrying, as that is the whole point of using a PDM."

Yes and no. The Elite can support a "haltech generic CAN stream" but you get what you get. The PMU has said CAN stream in it's CanX files database, and while there's a lot in it there isn't any generic or customizable outputs in the stream.

Those kind of special functions would need to be hardwired in, such is the way when a company doesn't wish to add an openly programmable CAN interface.

Can it work? yes, within limitations; hence I disagree with the phrase "communicate fully". It's also a 1 way communication, the PMU can't easily send the Elite data via CAN. Now if you were using a Link, or Ecumaster, or Maxx etc you wouldn't be limited. It's a matter of figuring out if there's any functions you wish to have and if you added a wire or two between devices that would be sufficient. I don't do or sell much Haltech for this sole reason, awesome ECU's otherwise.

On a different note I've done a few classic ish cars with a PMU and 16 inputs is generally plenty to get by. It can be programmed to mimic functions in newer cars if Resto-Mod is more the build's theme. With PWM outputs you can control things like the blower fan without a resistor pack, all controlled however you want. keypad, potentiometer knob, buttons, switches etc.

@Tyson. This is becoming more complex by the day... I've been speaking with Wiring Specialties about an ECU harness to suit the SR20 VCT, with ITBs and DBW, under the understanding that flicking my PD16 and replacing with the PMU24 would be a simple solution.... So now I have the option of hoping a PD16 will be enough, or whether I need to add a second, or start the whole ECU harness process again, and switch to an ECU Master unit.

I need a nap! 🤦🏻‍♂️